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After working +1200 hours in oDesk

malditointer.net

71–80 of 96 posts

Re: After working +1200 hours in oDesk

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but that drives me crazy! With the internet you aren't held down by your local economic wage and yet there are people like this guy who works like a dog and undercuts everyone with crazy cheap prices which brings down the global value of developers on sites like odesk. While I am sure he is a great developer, my point was that he could have worked less, raised his prices, gained better clients, and overall built…

It's not worth getting worked up over. If you sell your services for $x there is always somebody willing to sell for $x - 1.

Or organise an international union of programmers...

Re: After working +1200 hours in oDesk

#72
post #67
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you share how you got the $60 number? I recently relocated to a low income country and guestimated my needed hourly rate to be around $20 when doing a 30 hour work week. Biggest differences that I could think of is that I bought my house mortgage free and that I have a partner that also makes $20 per hour.

I was talking about one worker (partner doesn't work), so I guess your accumulated income is $40/hour. Still a bit far from my estimate. 1. Do you need a car? It's a must here, otherwise your low income country is more developed than the average third-world one. 2. Do you actually do the accounting, marketing... yourself or are you full-time employed. That skew things by a big margin. 3. How is inflation. It's around…

Thanks for the insight Omar. I moved to Hungary, so not really a third world country. I've only been living here for ~3 months so my estimate might be of by a bit.

1) I don't really need a car since public transport here is ok. However I do own one. I cut my car costs to a minimum by changing from a sports car to a 10 year old Ford Focus.

2) I have an accountant that costs about 300 euros per month right now, is one of the bigger costs that I have right now. Am gonna try do take on most marketing tasks myself.

3) I never accounted for inflation so far. This might be something that I have to look into a bit more.

Re: After working +1200 hours in oDesk

#73

I tried oDesk last year. There are so many people that are only willing to pay After getting through all of this, the clients left over that are even willing to pay a decent wage expect way too much. Developer, designer, and product manager for one fee. I can't tell you how many potential clients I turned down because of this. I gave this up and found a decent part-time contracting gig on craigslist. Odesk should be…

My experience was a few years back. When I was starting, I realised that getting clients with no records and rating in your profile was hard. I set to build up my profile. After filling the descriptive data, one thing that makes profiles to standout, are skill ratings. One can take online tests, and get achievements. I took various tests, and with effort got some good ratings, only to realise that some folks had mana…

We just had a discussion about this at our freelancer meetup last night. We've got a PM who's going to give a presentation on contracts and scoping work in January, and we were chatting about problems freelancers face. A couple guys in our group have been getting abused in much the same way you describe, although f2f and in the same town, not remote via odesk. And... trying to get people to go through a full 'statement of work' process before getting started is just something that will fall flat with most projects under a certain amount, however informal you try to make the process.

What we all agreed on is that there are some number of abusive people out there, much like you described. No amount of process, formalizing agreements, etc will save you from dealing with them. They have to be avoided, but you have to know how to identify them first, and you have to be willing to walk away from work, sometimes even in the middle of a projects. None of that is easy for some people - especially younger folks.

And yet... by the same token, I get contacted from people who tell me "my last guy just quit - just quit responding to emails - he flaked out - etc". I used to think those people were just irresponsible idiots, and I was going to provide great customer care, etc. I now realize there's 2 sides to the story, and sometimes the original party 'flaked out' because the employer in question quit paying or bounced checks, or is abusive, or a micromanager who's never satisfied and wants an ebay clone for $25 and will call you at 1am because they need help setting up their wife's email on her new iPhone.

Re: After working +1200 hours in oDesk

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience was a few years back. When I was starting, I realised that getting clients with no records and rating in your profile was hard. I set to build up my profile. After filling the descriptive data, one thing that makes profiles to standout, are skill ratings. One can take online tests, and get achievements. I took various tests, and with effort got some good ratings, only to realise that some folks had mana…

We just had a discussion about this at our freelancer meetup last night. We've got a PM who's going to give a presentation on contracts and scoping work in January, and we were chatting about problems freelancers face. A couple guys in our group have been getting abused in much the same way you describe, although f2f and in the same town, not remote via odesk. And... trying to get people to go through a full 'stateme…

One problem with these sites is the reputation system which suffers from the same problem all "star rating" systems suffer from. Namely that anything less than 5 stars is seen as a negative and higher paying clients will often look for providers with solid 5 star feedback.

Clients can abuse this by demanding additional work/scope creep in order to award the full 5 stars. In theory it can go both ways as providers are also able to rate clients, but in reality the rating is far more important to sellers since a buyer can go to one of these sites without a reputation, post a project and still receive a ton of bids.

Re: After working +1200 hours in oDesk

#75
post #72
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was talking about one worker (partner doesn't work), so I guess your accumulated income is $40/hour. Still a bit far from my estimate. 1. Do you need a car? It's a must here, otherwise your low income country is more developed than the average third-world one. 2. Do you actually do the accounting, marketing... yourself or are you full-time employed. That skew things by a big margin. 3. How is inflation. It's around…

Thanks for the insight Omar. I moved to Hungary, so not really a third world country. I've only been living here for ~3 months so my estimate might be of by a bit. 1) I don't really need a car since public transport here is ok. However I do own one. I cut my car costs to a minimum by changing from a sports car to a 10 year old Ford Focus. 2) I have an accountant that costs about 300 euros per month right now, is one…

Thanks for the feedback. Hungary might not be a top developed country, but there is a huge divide between a developed and a chaotic country.

1- Public transport is really huge. A car is a very expensive thing (especially a new one).

2- Car prices are two times higher than in developed countries. This is due to importing restrictions. Old cars are crazy expensive. My car appreciate just one week after I bought it by 8%.

3- This one is huge. In an unstable economy, it's not abnormal to see a sudden raise of 300% in some consumption good.

I do also assume/think that Hungary has an acceptable health care, too. Public health care here is another NO.NO. here. (ps the country is Tunisia).

otherwise, what are rents there like? It'd cost around $1,000/month to rent something respectable here.

Re: After working +1200 hours in oDesk

#76
post #68
post #61

To me, the most revealing part of this post is how much of a difference the profile picture made: adding a fake beard increased response rate threefold! I am often told that I look very young; I am 27 and people think I'm 20. I've never really thought much of it, but it might explain how disrespectful some people (especially in academia) have been treating me. Maybe I should grow a beard.

Do it. Growing some modest facial hair has made a big difference in being treated like an adult for me. For comparison I'm 30 and if I shave I get carded at movie theaters.

32 here and carded for beer when I shave (at places that normally don't). I guess I don't look quite Under 17 young any more, though, so congrats to you on that. ;)

Now if only I could grow a decent beard...

Re: After working +1200 hours in oDesk

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience was a few years back. When I was starting, I realised that getting clients with no records and rating in your profile was hard. I set to build up my profile. After filling the descriptive data, one thing that makes profiles to standout, are skill ratings. One can take online tests, and get achievements. I took various tests, and with effort got some good ratings, only to realise that some folks had mana…

We just had a discussion about this at our freelancer meetup last night. We've got a PM who's going to give a presentation on contracts and scoping work in January, and we were chatting about problems freelancers face. A couple guys in our group have been getting abused in much the same way you describe, although f2f and in the same town, not remote via odesk. And... trying to get people to go through a full 'stateme…

From Milton Glaser's "Ten Things I Have Learned" [PDF](http://www.miltonglaser.com/files/Essays-10things-8400.pdf):

> 3 SOME PEOPLE ARE TOXIC AVOID THEM. This is a subtext of number one. There was in the sixties a man named Fritz Perls who was a gestalt therapist. Gestalt therapy derives from art history, it proposes you must understand the 'whole' before you can understand the details. What you have to look at is the entire culture, the entire family and community and so on. Perls proposed that in all relationships people could be either toxic or nourishing towards one another. It is not necessarily true that the same person will be toxic or nourishing in every relationship, but the combination of any two people in a relationship produces toxic or nourishing consequences. And the important thing that I can tell you is that there is a test to determine whether someone is toxic or nourishing in your relationship with them. Here is the test: You have spent some time with this person, either you have a drink or go for dinner or you go to a ball game. It doesn't matter very much but at the end of that time you observe whether you are more energized or less energized. Whether you are tired or whether you are exhilarated. If you are more tired then you have been poisoned. If you have more energy you have been nourished. The test is almost infallible and I suggest that you use it for the rest of your life.

Re: After working +1200 hours in oDesk

#78
post #21

I think at least twice in this article you wrote 'contractor' when you meant to say 'client'. A contractor is the worker (you in this case) and the client is the person hiring you.

Probably you are right. I was still drafting the final post when I saw it in HN.

Re: After working +1200 hours in oDesk

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience was a few years back. When I was starting, I realised that getting clients with no records and rating in your profile was hard. I set to build up my profile. After filling the descriptive data, one thing that makes profiles to standout, are skill ratings. One can take online tests, and get achievements. I took various tests, and with effort got some good ratings, only to realise that some folks had mana…

We just had a discussion about this at our freelancer meetup last night. We've got a PM who's going to give a presentation on contracts and scoping work in January, and we were chatting about problems freelancers face. A couple guys in our group have been getting abused in much the same way you describe, although f2f and in the same town, not remote via odesk. And... trying to get people to go through a full 'stateme…

FYI: Any freelancers in the Raleigh/Durham area are free to join us monthly at http://www.meetup.com/Triangle-Web-Freelancers/ - forgot to add that to the earlier post.

Re: After working +1200 hours in oDesk

#80
post #61

To me, the most revealing part of this post is how much of a difference the profile picture made: adding a fake beard increased response rate threefold! I am often told that I look very young; I am 27 and people think I'm 20. I've never really thought much of it, but it might explain how disrespectful some people (especially in academia) have been treating me. Maybe I should grow a beard.

I'm the same. I recommend getting a heavy stubble and maintaining it with a beard trimmer. It easy, and you still look clean and professional, plus the ladies prefer it ;)

Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/3345796/Women-pre...

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