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About the Penny Arcade Job Posting

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71–80 of 126 posts

Re: About the Penny Arcade Job Posting

#71

He doesn't seem to dispute that he basically gets paid less than someone who does all those things should... So what I'm missing is whether there's a legitimate reason for him to be paid below market considering the Penny Arcade seems quite successful. Though as one of the many people who's accepted supposedly below market pay, I can somewhat relate.

It's just another example of people abusing their power. Got name brand recognition? Use it to stick it to your workers. Prettying it up with bright primary colors and photoshop fades all you want, we can still see the reality behind the flowery show.

I would like to believe that this guy enjoyed his job and it was a fair relationship. But that just doesn't ring as true. He's deluded himself into believing that he's working for a greater cause, the people who like Penny Arcade. It's not really a noble cause though is it?

Re: About the Penny Arcade Job Posting

#72
* If you want to work 80 or more hours * Prepare to have a laptop and some way of connecting to the internet with you at all times. Want to go on a hike somewhere there's no reception? Sorry, you can't. * They pushed out the launch, came and visited me in the hospital, brought me delicious Asian snacks and lent me a Vita to help pass the time.

So 80 hours of work a week -- or more. Inability to travel or enjoy wilderness or even visit family if they don't have reception. And if you're in the hospital, maybe they will visit and lend you something relatively cheap that you can return later.

Re: About the Penny Arcade Job Posting

#73
post #8

This post confirms that the job posting is exactly what it looks like: an exploitative horror-show * He speculates whether the job is worth a "lower salary" (and, given his admitted inexperience in the workforce, he probably has no idea what a market salary looks like) * "The ping-pong table is NOT a benefit" * He's on the "bottom of the goddamn ladder" and "reminded every day" edit: I'm getting a lot of flak for tak…

The whole post made me think of someone defending an abusive spouse. 'Yeah I'm not allowed to go anywhere ever, but he takes care of me. I probably wouldn't even meet the requirements for the job, I'm sure lucky he chose me.'

Re: About the Penny Arcade Job Posting

#74
post #63
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is leaving because: -I want to accelerate my plans for teaching -I have goals that won't be fulfilled by working there -I need to put away a lot of money to support myself when I’m getting paid a truly ludicrous wage ||-> indicating he is getting paid well at PA( compared to the teching job ) and was able to amass money for the low paying job when he will be teaching. Reading is tech.

I read it as he's not getting paid well enough to put money away so he's changing to a better paying job which let's him build up his savings and then move to teaching. Which would imply that PA isn't paying him very well.

Yes, he's not really clear that 'I am quitting so I can get a better-paying job to save up for becoming a teacher', but if you parse the paragraph carefully and pay attention to the 'but's, it's what he's saying:

> I am leaving because I have always wanted to teach. Doing so comfortably requires that before then, I need to put away a lot of money to support myself when I’m getting paid a truly ludicrous wage. It is true that I am paid below market value, but not so significantly as folks on the internet assume. I live quite comfortably on this salary, and while it’s less than I could make elsewhere, it’s not out of the bounds of reasonable expectation. But I want to accelerate my plans for teaching. So here we are. I love this company, but I have goals that won't be fulfilled by working there, so it's time to move on.

'I live comfortably... but I want to accelerate my plans for teaching'; he's not quitting to teach, he's quitting to 'accelerate my plans' ie. save up a bunch of money, which implies getting a better-paying job which is not itself teaching.

Re: About the Penny Arcade Job Posting

#75
post #59

Nothing about this job seems equitable. There appears to be literally 0 reward for making added sacrifices and taking on the additional duties called for. Financial gain? Nope. World class technological challenges? Still no. Work life balance? Obviously not. Solving meaningful problems? No. Name recognition or industry stepping stone? Maybe, but highly mitigated by the fact that any serious applicant would be qualifi…

Im personally not interested, but PA is something of a cultural zeigiest in the same demographic as most of the people who would meet this skill set. They are a big name in gaming, running PA, PAX(the largest video game expo out there), and the childs play charity. They are considered leading commentators in gaming, being both insightful and involved with gaming for over a decade.

Re: About the Penny Arcade Job Posting

#76
post #8

This post confirms that the job posting is exactly what it looks like: an exploitative horror-show * He speculates whether the job is worth a "lower salary" (and, given his admitted inexperience in the workforce, he probably has no idea what a market salary looks like) * "The ping-pong table is NOT a benefit" * He's on the "bottom of the goddamn ladder" and "reminded every day" edit: I'm getting a lot of flak for tak…

He fairly specifically says that interpretations such as yours are wrong. He specifically says: * No, the conditions are not awful...I love this company * No one here has been scammed into working as hard as they do, and the implication that we’re all blind fools with low self esteem for being here is honestly insulting. * There won’t be any taking advantage of starry-eyed young twenty-somethings. He explains why he'…

"He lies and says he's in love with it, can't find a better job..."

(With my apologies to Pearl Jam)

Re: About the Penny Arcade Job Posting

#77
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your reaching a little, taking things outta context and spinning what he says to reinforce what you want to believe. The bottom of the ladder is takin outta context, I am pretty sure he is referring to his position in the ping pong standings and joking about the ping pong table. Salary is poor may also be considered "fair" based on his comment: It is true that I am paid below market value, but not so signific…

Paying someone "near market value" for a regular developer at a normal company, but leaving them on call 24/7 for 5 years is paying them "way below market value". I say this as someone who went through that exact situation: I worked at a small company for five years out of college, and was on-call for 24/7 for most of that. Someone called me on my goddamn honeymoon (which was basically the only real vacation I took d…

Exactly this. He may have been paid "near market value", but he was being paid "near market value" for a different job description than what he actually had.

A normal web dev job, with limited on-call and not a lot of travel, perhaps, but unless he's being paid in the high-$100s, the travel and on-call requirements alone would have made him, in actuality, paid vastly below market.

I'm also intrigued to learn that he worked for Amazon as his one and only job out of college, before joining PA. With respect to the Amazonians on HN, his experiences working on a frontend team (with the requisite and insane oncall) at Amazon may have helped normalize a job description that to most of us here seems shocking and deplorable.

Amazon's salary offers to new undergrads is on the low end of normal (it's a standardized package, almost zero wiggle room on the compensation front). They're also infamous for their oncall system - a major contributor to their sky-high attrition rate. Turnover at Amazon is insane. I'm willing to bet that in his 3 years at Amazon, Kenneth would have seen just about every single person on his team turn over. In fact, if he was at Amazon for 3 years he's already way over the average tenure for devs, and likely the most veteran member of his team.

If you're coming from this environment, the PA deal is only moderately crazier. If you're coming from, well, most sane development jobs, the PA deal would seem absolutely off its rocker.

I spent 2 years at Amazon. I learned a ton, I worked with some great people. But boy, if you think Amazon is a "normal" gig, I've got a bridge to sell.

Re: About the Penny Arcade Job Posting

#78
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, actually it is somebody being abused by a corporation. His attempt at sugar coating it is a decent one, but is not convincing. The clincher is how he ends his post: "There is this notion that work/life balance is some kind of sacred goal. I’m sorry, but it’s ludicrous. That’s like saying everyone would be fulfilled by getting married and having 2.5 kids. If you want to work 40 hours and never think about your jo…

In a nutshell, he has described one of the fundamental problems of the gaming industry. Companies know people want to work in games so badly that they can pay them low wages and work them to the bone. In some cases, people are laid off as soon as the game ships. The company gets to pump up the balance sheets and the employees just take it until they're forced out of the industry to be replaced by another crop of fres…

Absolutely spot on description of the gaming industry. I spent a few years in it. I won't do it again, precisely because of the issues you describe. The kicker is they don't really seem to care that the "best and brightest" aren't interested in working for them. They care about getting product out the door, and quality is only on the radar to the minimal extent necessary to keep a plurality of fans happy.

This is especially an issue with "big name" companies that have "franchises." Their core market is unlikely to not purchase the next release in the franchise, so quality is less of an issue.

Re: About the Penny Arcade Job Posting

#79
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paying someone "near market value" for a regular developer at a normal company, but leaving them on call 24/7 for 5 years is paying them "way below market value". I say this as someone who went through that exact situation: I worked at a small company for five years out of college, and was on-call for 24/7 for most of that. Someone called me on my goddamn honeymoon (which was basically the only real vacation I took d…

> Paying someone "near market value" for a regular developer at a normal company, but leaving them on call 24/7 for 5 years is paying them "way below market value". I say this as someone who went through that exact situation: I worked at a small company SOP for small companies, except the market value bit, you'll usually get less.

[deleted]

Re: About the Penny Arcade Job Posting

#80
post #8

This post confirms that the job posting is exactly what it looks like: an exploitative horror-show * He speculates whether the job is worth a "lower salary" (and, given his admitted inexperience in the workforce, he probably has no idea what a market salary looks like) * "The ping-pong table is NOT a benefit" * He's on the "bottom of the goddamn ladder" and "reminded every day" edit: I'm getting a lot of flak for tak…

He fairly specifically says that interpretations such as yours are wrong. He specifically says: * No, the conditions are not awful...I love this company * No one here has been scammed into working as hard as they do, and the implication that we’re all blind fools with low self esteem for being here is honestly insulting. * There won’t be any taking advantage of starry-eyed young twenty-somethings. He explains why he'…

>* No, the conditions are not awful...I love this company

Well, duh, presumably he'd like to get a job at some point in the foreseeable future, and bad-mouthing your former employer is a wonderful one-way ticket to food stamps.

>No one here has been scammed into working as hard as they do

"Scam" is subjective. Of course nobody thinks they've been scammed. If you think you've been scammed, you quit. But if someone works basically illegal hours for below-market pay at a high-visibility company whose great overall contribution to society is a three-panel webcomic, well, it walks like a scam, quacks like a scam, and flies south for the winter.

>the implication that we’re all blind fools with low self esteem for being here is honestly insulting.

You don't have to be a blind fool to make a bad decision, and you don't have to hate yourself to sell yourself short. The reason we say these people are being exploited is quite simple: everything about their situation fits perfectly with the exploitation hypothesis. But you know what? This is par for the course in the world of "art". If you want to work in the "art" industry, like for a webcomic or a video game studio, be prepared to be paid less for more work than in some respectable field, unless you find a way to exploit the situation, cf. Thomas Kincaid.

Of course people call it exploitative, but it's really market pressure. There's no shortage of starry-eyed twenty-somethings to take advantage of, so the whole industry does it because, seriously, who's going to turn down free money? Why would you hire someone for a decent job at a respectable salary when you can make someone's life hell for a fraction of the price without any real impact on your bottom line? That's all Penny Arcade is really thinking.

Of course there's a word for people who think like this: Homo economicus. There's also a shorter word with less Latin: despicable. Penny Arcade is despicable. Period.

>There won’t be any taking advantage of starry-eyed young twenty-somethings.

But there is. It's their business model. It's part of the business model of a litany of "cool" companies where, in lieu of a fair salary, you get to put on your Facebook "I work at Penny Arcade", and, I dunno, maybe people think it'll get them laid or something.

You can't ignore a person's status when you're considering what they're saying. This poor bastard's comments have a direct and measurable impact on his future earning prospects, and having Hacker News ruminate over his situation for half a week is steadily decreasing his prospective income for the rest of his life. These are facts, not opinions. This is what happens when you bad-mouth your employer, because the deck is stacked against you.

>He explains why he's leaving directly and clearly, (including "No, I did not burn out.") and that he likes working there

In conclusion, no shit, Sherlock. Would you hire someone who said they burned out at their previous job because it sucked? Of course not.

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