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Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

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Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#71

Post by makmanalp »

cobrausn wrote: post #11
drcube wrote: post #7

I've been saying this for years now. Give people the freedom to make their own economic decisions without the fate of crushing poverty over their heads. Give them the financial breathing room to learn a new skill, start a business, or simply find a better job than the one they currently have. Basically, the freedom to take risks. Rich people have been telling us for decades that is what they bring to the table. Risk.…

And what happens when it decreases the number of people who choose to get an education to seek greater opportunities? After all, the thought of perpetual poverty is a huge motivator. With that gone? Won't we see a higher divide between skilled and unskilled, rich and poor? I'm a bit skeptical about this supposed panacea that cures crime, disease, and teen pregnancy, all in one fell swoop.

I think it's the other way round: It's difficult to convince people to get an education when:

- It costs money

- It's presented as a way to get a profession that could maybe make you money in the long term, and not as a way to get an education. Besides, evidence seems to be to the contrary.

- The short term financial benefits are nil, and you need money now.

But when people have survival off of their minds, I think it's be easier to convince them of taking a no-risk dive into education. I think consumerism will be there, and people will still be motivated to make more money to spend more money.

A bit like the ancient greek free men: They had their lives all set for them, and so they couldn't help but think about governance, politics, arts, rights, etc.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#72

Post by venomsnake »

pinaceae wrote: post #60

As a European we are bit further down that path than the US. I assume most of the readers here are "wealthy", would not need basic guaranteed income. So let me explain why this is a good idea from a rich man's perspective. You give poor people a basic sum of money so they don't climb over the fence and kill you in your sleep. That's it. Behind all the nice language this is what it boils down to. It is paying off poor…

Especially in demand deprived economics times this is one of the best ways to boost both demand and inflation.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#73

Post by cobrausn »

rayiner wrote: post #51
lelandbatey wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once people reach a livable income, do they totally stop learning, inventing, or creating? I know I don't, and I know other people I see with financial security don't just "stop" either. Because of that, I believe it's at least worth a try.

No, of course not. But the idea that minimum income would cause everyone to just quit their jobs is predicated on the presumption that the poor are morally inferior. Thus, analogies to what middle and upper class people do once they reach a certain level of income are irrelevant, because those people are not morally inferior. You might see a middle class person leave his comfortable line engineer job to get an MBA or…

Nice straw man, but no - I'm not concerned about the poor who work for a living, they genuinely tend to want to improve their lives and their families lives - that's why they are willing to work 40 hours or more a week for barely more money than could be gained on welfare. I've been there.

I'm worried about the children of middle and upper-income families deciding that 'mincome' is good enough. I have yet to see any actual study or research on this that isn't 40 years old. The results were fairly positive then, but I'd like to see it replicated today. Maybe I'm worried about nothing.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#74

Post by [deleted] »

cobrausn wrote: post #50
nanidin wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ideally the income level is below "Owns 42" flatscreen, can go to anything more expensive than McDonald's, owns latest xbox, owns other luxury goods" such that people are no longer living in poverty, but still have motivation to excel beyond their current situation. Unfortunately, if you hand someone with poor money management skills a bunch of cash, they may end up with all of those luxury items & no food on the tab…

Considering how cheap consumer electronics and entertainment are these days, I'm genuinely concerned that this 'minimum income' would be high enough to permit many to live in perpetual 'childhood' - cheap food, cheap entertainment.

[deleted]

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#75

Post by mbesto »

drcube wrote: post #20
cobrausn wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what happens when it decreases the number of people who choose to get an education to seek greater opportunities? After all, the thought of perpetual poverty is a huge motivator. With that gone? Won't we see a higher divide between skilled and unskilled, rich and poor? I'm a bit skeptical about this supposed panacea that cures crime, disease, and teen pregnancy, all in one fell swoop.

Poverty is a huge cause of crime, disease, teen pregnancy, and poor educational outcomes. Do you disagree? And if someone refuses to get an education or better themselves when given the opportunity, are they somebody you'd like to hire for your company? Better to keep them placated with some minimum of food and shelter so they don't rob you, and save the jobs for the people who want them and will execute to your sati…

I took a criminology class in college and the big takeaway was the supposed statistical correlation between race and crime - which, if study correctly - actually correlates to poverty and crime.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#77

Post by jiggy2011 »

rayiner wrote: post #51
lelandbatey wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once people reach a livable income, do they totally stop learning, inventing, or creating? I know I don't, and I know other people I see with financial security don't just "stop" either. Because of that, I believe it's at least worth a try.

No, of course not. But the idea that minimum income would cause everyone to just quit their jobs is predicated on the presumption that the poor are morally inferior. Thus, analogies to what middle and upper class people do once they reach a certain level of income are irrelevant, because those people are not morally inferior. You might see a middle class person leave his comfortable line engineer job to get an MBA or…

I think it's more likely that the poor would quit their jobs because the sorts of jobs that they do are more likely to be boring or unpleasant than middle class jobs.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#78

Post by 3am »

And when they spend their money stupidly and don't have enough money for health care or food, we let them die on the street, right?

Or we let private charities cover the gap. But when they don't, we let them die on the street?

And if we don't let them die on the street, we find ourselves back where we started, in need of a social insurance safety net for basic necessities.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#79

Post by alaxsxaq »

peterdundi wrote: post #10
drcube wrote: post #7

I've been saying this for years now. Give people the freedom to make their own economic decisions without the fate of crushing poverty over their heads. Give them the financial breathing room to learn a new skill, start a business, or simply find a better job than the one they currently have. Basically, the freedom to take risks. Rich people have been telling us for decades that is what they bring to the table. Risk.…

"Give people the freedom to make their own economic decisions" Why should they be free to make their own decision about how they spend MY money?

You are not really getting much of anywhere with 'your' money in the first place without the benefits you accrue from living in a civil society. Ensuring all citizens of health, housing, and education should be a basic tenant of a civil society and these are the things that allow everyone to prosper and for which everyone in the society should be expected to pay.

If you don't want to participate in a civil society, there are still places in this world where you can go and deal with everything on your own. Go.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#80

Post by iSnow »

prostoalex wrote: post #64
tghw wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The one real world example we have, of Dauphin, suggests this is not the case at all. A final report was never issued, but Dr. Evelyn Forget conducted an analysis of the program in 2009 which was published in 2011. She found that only new mothers and teenagers worked substantially less. Mothers with newborns stopped working because they wanted to stay at home longer with their babies, and teenagers worked less becaus…

If every child is eligible for his fair share of minimum income, there's a good incentive to direct productive-work energy into baby-making activities, boosting household's basic income numbers with each new addition.

With the aging population in Japan and Europe this sounds not so bad.
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