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Why There Are No Women on Twitter’s Board, and So Few in Technology

mikaschiller.wordpress.com

71–80 of 134 posts

Re: Why There Are No Women on Twitter’s Board, and So Few in Technology

#71
Just because the author cites studies doesn't mean those studies are not biased, or that their limited scope is not distorting our ideas of people's motivations or actions in the real world. Psychological and sociological studies try to put people in situations that are meant to be "representative" of how they react on a large scale in the real world, but the situations themselves are small-scale, simple, and usually involved test subjects who are educated, middle-to-upper class, white college students.

The entire section about men being competitive and how boys act on the playground just demonstrates how little the author understands about social dynamics between women. Women try to do pro-social actions because egotistical actions get them ostracized very, very quickly. If a woman was so transparently cocky, she would have absolutely no friends and an endless gossip mill from jealous and/or insecure peers. We're also in a society where women who are 20 years old or older have still grown up in a society where-- as much as they were told they could do any job a man could-- they still mostly wanted to marry a guy who made more money than them, and knew that their success was not as critical to their social status as their beauty, kindness, or ability to do traditionally female activities well. Personally, as much as I have loved math all of my life and programming for the past few years, I have also been keenly aware that having a good sense of style, being able to cook, being good at dance and art, and being friendly and outgoing have been extremely helpful in my socialization as a female. Could I have neglected all of those things to be even better at math and programming? Of course. Would I have as much social status or friends? Definitely not. Additionally, male success attracts attractive women, while female success does not do the same. You have to be in a city or career or educational environment with "the right kinds of guys" in order for them to respect you MORE because of your intellect and accomplishments, not less. But for a man, being successful will aid him in attracting women who he finds "up to par" even if he is not in an environment full of other smart & accomplished people. The easiest way to see an example of this is by comparing the romantic and sexual experiences of smart males vs. smart females in high school. The boys have gone on more dates and had more sexual experiences, while many girls-- even pretty ones-- have not had such experiences.

Girls are fine interacting with machines, but please take a look at all the bazillions of articles written about Goldie Blox, and that great comic- http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1883#comic -you can't just say "well there are toys for kids made to be unisex" because most things that are unisex (ask a woman how awkward and uncomfortable "unisex" t-shirts are) are really just made for guys. I loved design as a kid. I thought it was arts & crafts, because that's what everyone calls it when you're a young girl, but it was really design. If I had toys that encouraged me to design webpages and programs, there's no doubt in my mind that I would have loved them, but boys toys involved rudimentary programming and engineering, while girl's toys were all about playing house, hosting tea parties, and dressing up dolls. The most mechanical they got were dolls who peed or said stupid phrases.

Business is very people-oriented! You are making products for PEOPLE. There is no way the author can argue that business in general, and tech businesses in particular, do not have aspects that appeal to both kinds of stereotypical interests from each gender. Tech businesses are creative and involve selling and designing things. Would this sexist author say that talking to a lot of people and designing something beautiful are traditionally male functions?

Isolation and lack of self-confidence are EXTREMELY societal. How can isolation be the fault of an individual? I DO feel very uncomfortable when I'm the only woman in a room full of men. Who wouldn't feel uncomfortable walking into a room and being the "only" of anything, especially anything REALLY obvious-- like gender or race, which you display on your body and can't hide.

These caveman arguments are also stupid. Who is to say that the women who would have to keep track of complex timing schedules for feeding their children, who had to ensure that they had enough food to feed everyone in their family or community, who counted and kept track of the objects stored at home, etc. did not also develop mathematical skills in an evolutionary manner? The author's reasoning is stupid.

Ever think those "sex" differences in spatial and mechanical thinking are because boys are building little cars and rockets or tossing around a football as a toddler, but girls are drawing and imagining and telling stories? Even if kids gravitate towards those and it's not entirely the fault of toy companies and clueless parents/educators, surely these years of practice can not be discounted or called "natural".

In conclusion, I went into this with a semi-open mind because I'm always waiting for an argument I will actually respect. But I was disappointed yet again. http://xkcd.com/385/

Re: Why There Are No Women on Twitter’s Board, and So Few in Technology

#72
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The world at large isn't ready to hear these statistics Not the "world at large". Just (provincial) middle/upper class America. > We shouldn't accept these disparities as driven by natural forces until we've tried everything we can imagine to try to bring the differences in line. Shouldn't we in fact try to understand what's going on, instead of trying to change it because of a priori notion that there shouldn't be…

My point is that we should have to disprove equality repeatedly, consistently, and summarily before we accept inequality. The standard for proving the hypothesis of inequality should be extremely high. All people created equal until summarily proven otherwise, and even then still treated as equal in every way that matters.

Except it doesn't seem like people are saying "lets get this measurement right so we know what needs to be done". Instead it sounds a lot more like a self-righteous group determining what isn't and isn't the correct way to do things so that we can begin getting noise free measurements.

Re: Why There Are No Women on Twitter’s Board, and So Few in Technology

#73
post #51
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could be the butterfly effect. It starts with children. Better at math -> more interested in math -> better at math -> ... by they time young adults start seeking jobs, a small initial bias has turned into a large gap. Personally, I don't think that's the whole story (according to my observations, it's also upbringing, girls socialize more than boys, who are more likely to keep to themselves, and differences in to…

First, it's probably not the case that interest and practice can have any impact on your underlying mathematical aptitude. Second, regardless, the 2:1 ratio for perfect scores on the SAT Math manifests at 16-18, so when people are already mostly developed.

No ,I was saying that they have an impact on the actual mathematical aptitude, and the (again actual) ratios of men/women in STEM industries.

Re: Why There Are No Women on Twitter’s Board, and So Few in Technology

#74
post #34

The problem with his argument is not the statistics, which are sound, but the fact that he begs the question and also ignores some obvious implications of the very data he presents. First, let's talk about mathematical ability. It's widely known that men outnumber women in the upper percentiles of mathematical ability. However, that's an explanation for why there are so few female Fields Medalists (in fact, there are…

>Among people who score a perfect 800 on the Math SAT (top 1% starts at 770), men outnumber women only 2:1

So you are selecting outliers to justify the "proper" average outnumbering? That doesn't add up.

Re: Why There Are No Women on Twitter’s Board, and So Few in Technology

#75
post #34

The problem with his argument is not the statistics, which are sound, but the fact that he begs the question and also ignores some obvious implications of the very data he presents. First, let's talk about mathematical ability. It's widely known that men outnumber women in the upper percentiles of mathematical ability. However, that's an explanation for why there are so few female Fields Medalists (in fact, there are…

Even if mathematical ability is totally determinative, and being a programmer required top 0.3-0.5% of mathematical ability, we would expect to see ratios of maybe 65/35 in the programming world, not 90/10 or 95/5.

That's true. But he described multiple factors that bias men towards programming. Even if individual factors (like mathematical ability) only cause 65/35 differences in isolation, combining a few of them together results in pretty extreme distributions.

Re: Why There Are No Women on Twitter’s Board, and So Few in Technology

#76
post #56
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The world at large isn't ready to hear these statistics Not the "world at large". Just (provincial) middle/upper class America. > We shouldn't accept these disparities as driven by natural forces until we've tried everything we can imagine to try to bring the differences in line. Shouldn't we in fact try to understand what's going on, instead of trying to change it because of a priori notion that there shouldn't be…

IT's white-collar whereas the jobs you're talking about aren't. Apparently there's never been a huge amount of feminist interest in getting women into male-dominated blue-collar jobs or in working-class women in general; it's an old and fairly well documented issue.

Buffet style!

Can I get on the life-raft yet?

Re: Why There Are No Women on Twitter’s Board, and So Few in Technology

#77
post #34

The problem with his argument is not the statistics, which are sound, but the fact that he begs the question and also ignores some obvious implications of the very data he presents. First, let's talk about mathematical ability. It's widely known that men outnumber women in the upper percentiles of mathematical ability. However, that's an explanation for why there are so few female Fields Medalists (in fact, there are…

>>Why is competitiveness a good thing for the business of writing software? Don't you think cooperation would be better for such a deeply team-oriented discipline?

Mostly because compensation, benefits, raises, promotions and incentives are in most cases at individual levels. So people chase goals what you want them to chase.

Also note what's good for the team is often not good for the individual. I know this from personal experience, if you have a mix of high and low performers in a team and the rewards for them are going to be the same regardless of performance- The next thing that happens is the low performers make no attempt to increase their performance and high performers are always supposed to make up for it.

This creates immense frustration for people who are performing well. They see no reason why they must be doing heroics to take the same amount of money as the guy who isn't putting even a fraction of their effort. So the whole team collaboration stuff collapses.

Re: Why There Are No Women on Twitter’s Board, and So Few in Technology

#78

Just positing that these things _might_ be true and should be investigated was a key factor in Larry Summers getting drummed out of his position as President of Harvard. The world at large isn't ready to hear these statistics, and overall that is probably a good thing. We shouldn't accept these disparities as driven by natural forces until we've tried everything we can imagine to try to bring the differences in line.…

> The world at large isn't ready to hear these statistics, and overall that is probably a good thing. I agree. Research and data might make people feel bad, and not making people feel bad is obviously way more important than increasing knowledge. > We shouldn't accept these disparities as driven by natural forces until we've tried everything we can imagine to try to bring the differences in line. I agree. Personally…

You're responding almost entirely to things I didn't say.

> Research and data might make people feel bad, and not making people feel bad is obviously way more important than increasing knowledge.

Not what I said at all, I said the standard for proof should be extremely high. High standards for proof != don't do research (though I admit I should have said so more clearly as I used the example of Summers without condemning what happened to him. He shouldn't have been drummed out for asking the questions.)

> We can discontinue this policy when there is a 50/50 gender split among all STEM workers, educators, and investors.

I assumed that the word "reasonable" was implied in what I was saying. But you're right, some people might propose absurd attempts to bring things in line.

> 1+1=3. Doesn't matter if you can prove that 1+1=2.

First of all, I was commenting on the standard by which we should accept 1+1=3, and which of the two (1+1=3 or 1+1=2) should be our acting hypothesis until we know.

Secondly, I said we should act as if differences are due to bias _until long after_. I was arguing for the default standard, and when it would be acceptable to change the standard. I never said never.

> Yep, unimaginable catastrophes.

Are you actually ignorant of the human history of genocide, dismissal of female person-hood, and racially driven slavery?

Re: Why There Are No Women on Twitter’s Board, and So Few in Technology

#79

The history of standardized testing and the history of statistics 'proving' that minorities are innately different in some way are inextricably linked. The original intelligence tests 'proved' to the American populace that Italian and Irish immigrants were intellectually inferior to Anglo Saxons because of their lower IQ scores. Magically, as those populations integrated, their IQ scores normalized. Oops. This articl…

This article reads like those (thankfully) classic evolutionary biology texts.

Or those unthankfully modern evolutionary psychology texts.

Re: Why There Are No Women on Twitter’s Board, and So Few in Technology

#80
post #38
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any statistics/reasoning that support this argument? I'd say it's simply because it's a crappy, low-paying, exhausting job with too many working hours, which not many people want. Men usually get such jobs.

But why do they get such jobs? Because of rigid gender roles that force them to be a certain way. What’s your alternative explanation?

Because there aren't any other jobs.

The real question is, though, why don't the women get/take such jobs. I think the answer is a mixture of the following: (1) they are worse at such jobs than men (physically weaker and menstruating, which I assume might matter for a job like truck-driving), (2) (I assume) women get more government help, because they are more often (single) mothers and (3) women can play on other qualities (more social, better caregivers, more attractive, less dangerous) that allows them to get other jobs (nanny, waitress, secretary, ...).

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