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Hordes Of Novices

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Re: Hordes Of Novices

#71

Post by jasonlotito »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #69
jasonlotito wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Opposing people learning things because what they might create with that knowledge is just wrong He doesn't oppose people learning things. > Obviously they're not going to be writing commercial or critical systems. No. That's exactly what he's talking about. The trend to hire more people rather than better people. FTA: "Do we really need to keep on recruiting and training cannon fodder to throw at software projects…

I did... the point with people learning to code is precisely not that they're going to get hired to write code (that's what we professionals do). The current craze for teaching people to code that he references has (in my experience at least) got nothing to do with creating a horde of junior devs, but is to do with people waking up to the fact that they're effectively illiterate. I agree entirely that 9 women can't p…

> I did... the point with people learning to code is precisely not that they're going to get hired to write code (that's what we professionals do).

So then I don't understand the point of your comment, because it's not a response to anything said in the original article. You are responding to Uncle Bob on an issue he does not bring up.

Unless you are referring to the part about code academies, where he says:

"These programs are attracting people to them, and employers, desperate to add developers, are hiring them."

Which flies in the face of what you say in this comment.

So, I don't understand. What are you responding to? Maybe you misunderstood the premise?

Re: Hordes Of Novices

#72

Post by unclebobmartin »

robin2 wrote: post #48
robin2 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I wanted to be pedantic I'd say that you'd really want a heart transplant done by a surgeon, not a doctor... That said, I think the real questions is: who is Robert Martin, self-described uber-hacker, that his opinions should be taken so seriously? What has he written?

To expand on that a bit, I should mention that this question came up at a software craftsmanship meetup, after Martin had given a talk in Cambridge. (Incidentally, people who had seen him speak had been very disappointed.) The only answers to "Who is Uncle Bob?" seemed to be "He's very old" and "He wrote a book". Given his schtick is to be a sage figure of comparable stature to, say, Don Knuth or Brian Kernighan, I d…

Dear Mr Newton. My memory of the Cambridge event a few years back is rather different from what you report. As I recall, the room was packed, the reception was enthusiastic, as was the applause; and the folks who talked with me later were excited and congratulatory. I don't know who you talked to, but -- perhaps it's best not to report on things that you didn't attend.

As for Micah, my son, he runs a very successful software development company of 60 or so developers who specialize in extremely high quality software. He maintains very high standards for the developers who work for him. Every one of them practices TDD as well as many other practices that we've found to be beneficial. The result has been a steady stream of very satisfied customers and repeat business. Those customers would likely disagree with you about the reliability of his code; and the code of his employees. But then, I don't imagine your comment was based on any actual knowledge of his code. Perhaps it's best not to report on things you haven't seen.

Re: Hordes Of Novices

#73

Post by unclebobmartin »

robin2 wrote: post #66
Nimi wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find the described interaction problematic from an agile standpoint: "People and interactions over processes and tools" - and then, they agree to give a lecture on TDD? You're describing literally shoving a process down the throats of unwilling programmers. I'm not an agile expert, but it seems to me they should have refused such an arrangement, and plainly say: "Right now, you don't use an agile methodology. Us gi…

In this case, I don't think the company can be blamed. As I recall, it hadn't asked for TDD training, it had asked for C++ training. So if anyone should be blamed it would be ObjectMentor for (a) hearing this as "introduction to object orientation", and (b) sending someone with rusty C++ skills.

At the time of that course, Micah was supporting a very large C++ application, and had been for some years. Were his skills rusty? I rather doubt it.

In any case, --- what does this have to do with the article in the title line? It seems odd to be talking about something my son did nearly a decade ago in response to an article I wrote today?

Re: Hordes Of Novices

#74

Post by unclebobmartin »

robin2 wrote: post #35
noonespecial wrote: post #24

If one doctor can transplant a heart in ten hours, can ten nurses transplant that heart in one hour? Can a hundred nursing assistants transplant that heart in six minutes? Can six hundred hospital receptionists transplant that heart in one minute? The real question is: Could the doctor do the transplant without any nurses? Could the nurses help the doctor without the receptionists?

If I wanted to be pedantic I'd say that you'd really want a heart transplant done by a surgeon, not a doctor... That said, I think the real questions is: who is Robert Martin, self-described uber-hacker, that his opinions should be taken so seriously? What has he written?

Mr. Newton. Why is that the question? What does who I am have to do with what I wrote?

Now, if you'd like to know who I am, I'll be glad to tell you. I've been writing code since 1970. I started on PDP/8s and PDP/11s. I have written BAL, COBOL, Fortran, PL/1, C, C++, Java, C#, Ruby, Python, Clojure, and a bunch of other language I can't remember. I spent many years writing embedded software in 8080 assembler, to control telecommunications micr-controllers. I spent a year and a half working at Rational with Grady Booch on the first two releases of Rose (for my sins). I have written five books on software development and have edited two more. I called the meeting that founded the Agile movement, and served as the first chairman of the Agile Alliance. I was the editor-in-chief of the C++ Report for three years. I am the creator of cleancoders.com, which offers software development video training. Nowadays I spend my time speaking, teaching, making videos, writing blogs, and writing Clojure and Java code.

Is there anything else you'd like to know?

(BTW, the term "uber-hacker" is not mine, and is incorrect. I shall endeavor to get that removed.)

Re: Hordes Of Novices

#75

Post by mattdeboard »

I wonder about the thought process that spawns articles like these.

I'm a novice but I think I do pretty well for myself. I also didn't write my first line of code when I was very young. I didn't get any thrills or anything from programming until I started in my 30s.

Obviously you need hordes of novices. What a preposterous, pretentious thing to say. It's the ultimate "first world problem" of career fields. "We have too many people who want to do this job because the pay is so good, career outlook is so bright, and job satisfaction is so high!"

Yes you'll probably have to work much harder on a good noise filter when hiring, and you will probably have to be ok with taking a chance on hiring "newbs", hoping to get a great one who trains up well.

This is a really geeky rant, and I don't mean that in a good way. I mean it as in totally socially tone deaf. It's like Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons wrote this. I know the author is a well-known guy in the software world but that doesn't change my opinion at all.

Re: Hordes Of Novices

#76

Post by unclebobmartin »

unclebobmartin wrote: post #74
robin2 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I wanted to be pedantic I'd say that you'd really want a heart transplant done by a surgeon, not a doctor... That said, I think the real questions is: who is Robert Martin, self-described uber-hacker, that his opinions should be taken so seriously? What has he written?

Mr. Newton. Why is that the question? What does who I am have to do with what I wrote? Now, if you'd like to know who I am, I'll be glad to tell you. I've been writing code since 1970. I started on PDP/8s and PDP/11s. I have written BAL, COBOL, Fortran, PL/1, C, C++, Java, C#, Ruby, Python, Clojure, and a bunch of other language I can't remember. I spent many years writing embedded software in 8080 assembler, to cont…

My mistake. This was just another one of your misreported facts. The bio line on my blog says that I am an über _geek_; not an über _hacker_. And with _that_ characterization I must agree.

Live long and prosper.

Re: Hordes Of Novices

#77

Post by unclebobmartin »

Nimi wrote: post #63
robin2 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To expand on that a bit, I should mention that this question came up at a software craftsmanship meetup, after Martin had given a talk in Cambridge. (Incidentally, people who had seen him speak had been very disappointed.) The only answers to "Who is Uncle Bob?" seemed to be "He's very old" and "He wrote a book". Given his schtick is to be a sage figure of comparable stature to, say, Don Knuth or Brian Kernighan, I d…

I find the described interaction problematic from an agile standpoint: "People and interactions over processes and tools" - and then, they agree to give a lecture on TDD? You're describing literally shoving a process down the throats of unwilling programmers. I'm not an agile expert, but it seems to me they should have refused such an arrangement, and plainly say: "Right now, you don't use an agile methodology. Us gi…

Nimi, the agile manifesto does not say "People and Interactions _instead_ of processes and tools". Indeed, the preamble to the manifesto is quite specific that we think processes and tools are good things. It's just that people and interactions should take precedence.

In light of that, your contention that teaching TDD is "very far from the principles of being agile" is somewhat misguided. Quite to the contrary, to disregard processes and tools is what would be far from agile.

Re: Hordes Of Novices

#80

Post by j_s »

robin2 wrote: post #48
robin2 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I wanted to be pedantic I'd say that you'd really want a heart transplant done by a surgeon, not a doctor... That said, I think the real questions is: who is Robert Martin, self-described uber-hacker, that his opinions should be taken so seriously? What has he written?

To expand on that a bit, I should mention that this question came up at a software craftsmanship meetup, after Martin had given a talk in Cambridge. (Incidentally, people who had seen him speak had been very disappointed.) The only answers to "Who is Uncle Bob?" seemed to be "He's very old" and "He wrote a book". Given his schtick is to be a sage figure of comparable stature to, say, Don Knuth or Brian Kernighan, I d…

Did this just blow straight past ad hominem to character assassination?!! This is the first time a post on HN has turned my stomach.
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