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What Happens When a Freelancer Does Work for a Client Without a Contract

blog.kunvay.com

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Re: What Happens When a Freelancer Does Work for a Client Without a Contract

#71
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

heh thanks for your vote of confidence... I've been getting a lot of flack on this thread for apparently having a controversial view but it's something I've reached through years of freelance in NYC & long-term contract work with a couple of major corporations. No business school, just easy-come-easy-go focus-on-the-bigger-picture engineering gigs. I say I'm not a businessman not because I don't do business, but beca…

Assume you are dealing with rational actors, be a good judge of character… You work for corporations, right? It's never a good idea to bet big money that a human being who is rational and classy today will remain so for months or years in the future. (After you've lived with a few Alzheimer's patients, you'll know what I'm talking about.) But corporations aren't even human. Their character is literally for sale. The…

I work for corporations through a consulting firm. Most won't let you deal with them directly. But I get a paycheck every 2 weeks, I can't really see them being able to take that away from me retroactively...

But trust me the corporations (the one I work for is an international electronics manufacturer) are very polite and respectful and very much understand the realities of risk/reward, and that you have to spend money to make money. And they all have an army of QA engineers double-checking work because they will not allow $1 million dollars of business to be dependent on a single point of failure. Even if they bring you to court (they never would) I'd assume its VERY difficult to get compensation. If you hire an employee and he does a bad job, do you get to sue him for damaging your profit margins? Hell no, you just get to fire him and hire a new guy. If everyone were legally on the hook for the work they produced, it would be like assuming that everyone you ever hire is required to be omniscient. The reality is, you can't hire someone with a 50 IQ and then sue them because you believe one of their lines of code hurt your profitability. It's your fault for hiring them.

I gotta say a lot of these responses I'm getting are very paranoid. When a company pays you for work it's really hard for them to take that away from you. The most that's ever really at stake is your current paycheck and not even that really because the department of labor is VERY harsh on reputable employers who deny paychecks.

It seems like your point is more of a fantasy scenario where they give you a billion dollars & 5 years of unsupervised time to design a huge blackbox program that has to do X, then find out it doesn't do X. The software industry is simply not like this. All tasks are broken up into discrete components and if you're not doing a good job they'll fire you and bring in a new team to finish the job.

The ONLY way I've actually heard of an employee losing $$ is when they have a long-term employment agreement and they break it. It's kindof like an athlete signing a 10-year deal & walking off the field after 6 months. Then, yes, you're liable.

Otherwise being a paid consultant is pretty much the same thing as being an employee. Also, I doubt that companies will sign some "boilerplate contract" that absolves you of all liability. They'd rather hire someone who is more confident. That's not a dig, I really mean that sincerely. Over-negotiating and specifying a bunch of "unrealistic-covering-my-ass-terms" can come off as amateur.

Re: What Happens When a Freelancer Does Work for a Client Without a Contract

#72
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to sound confrontational but I think you have quite a few misunderstandings about the software industry and at-will employment. Never have I ever seen any situation where an engineer is beholden to a client without having signed a long-term service contract or employment agreement.

In most places an individual can't be compelled to do much of anything for a client or employer regardless of what a contract says, since generic laws against slavery and similar concepts will apply. This is true almost everywhere in the first world, whether or not it has at-will employment. Normally there are some special legal provisions for cases where you need this not to apply, such as the military or emergency…

Eh I'm sorry I just don't buy it. Without a maintenance contract, they could never win the argument that you were required to perform maintenance. And freelancers/consultants/employees-in-general have very little liability. I code people's websites all the time with 0% fear of losing my bank account in court.

Re: What Happens When a Freelancer Does Work for a Client Without a Contract

#73
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most places an individual can't be compelled to do much of anything for a client or employer regardless of what a contract says, since generic laws against slavery and similar concepts will apply. This is true almost everywhere in the first world, whether or not it has at-will employment. Normally there are some special legal provisions for cases where you need this not to apply, such as the military or emergency…

Eh I'm sorry I just don't buy it. Without a maintenance contract, they could never win the argument that you were required to perform maintenance. And freelancers/consultants/employees-in-general have very little liability. I code people's websites all the time with 0% fear of losing my bank account in court.

And freelancers/consultants/employees-in-general have very little liability.

If what you wrote there were necessarily true, nobody working as a freelancer/consultant would need to set up their own corporate entity as a legal shield, nobody in that field would need professional indemnity insurance, and insurers who offer professional indemnity insurance to IT contractors here in the UK wouldn't routinely ask specific questions about whether those contractors were going to be working with clients in the United States because of the risk of having to cover significant legal bills increases so much in that case that a higher premium is indicated.

I code people's websites all the time with 0% fear of losing my bank account in court.

Well, that's your choice, and of course you're entitled to your personal opinion.

I've worked with other freelancers who didn't feel the need to have a written contract with a long-term client either, but I would never recommend that approach myself.

Re: What Happens When a Freelancer Does Work for a Client Without a Contract

#74
Is there any value in a sample or boilerplate contracts?

I've asked some people in the past and they seem very guarded about sharing theirs and always try to refer me to a lawyer. Good advice and I realize that lawyers should save you money in the long run, but for on-the-side small time consulting is there a base template that would get people through their first few gigs?

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