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Frege: A JVM pure functional programming language in the spirit of Haskell

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Re: Frege: A JVM pure functional programming language in the spirit of Haskell

#71

Post by cannam »

adultSwim wrote: post #67

I really wish this was strict. I feel like most regular programmers could understand and benefit from using ML (or some similar language). In Haskell, laziness kept the language pure while it was developing but now I'm not sure it should be the default. I like OCaml style opt in laziness. For most people, they could get a lot of pretty vanilla typed functional programming language. Polymorphic type inference, algebra…

There is Yeti (http://mth.github.io/yeti/), a JVM language from the ML family. I think it's close to a 1.0 release, and the compiler has been pretty reliable for a while now. I find it a delight to use.

Re: Frege: A JVM pure functional programming language in the spirit of Haskell

#72

Post by allertonm »

voxfrege wrote: post #61
allertonm wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately it looks like you would have to build from source. The best place for that would be Rich Webster's fork - https://github.com/rdwebster/Open-Quark - which is the version maintained by Indicee.

In the "How to build..." document it says I need Eclipse exactly 3.3.0 I am not going to install this, even if I would find it somewhere, hence ....

I imagine the documentation is completely out of date.

Anyway, if you don't want to look at it, that's your loss - while I don't think CAL has much of a future a lot of work was invested in it by a very talented team and there is probably something to be learned from it.

Re: Frege: A JVM pure functional programming language in the spirit of Haskell

#73

Post by cgh »

Touche wrote: post #24
waterlion wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would you prefer? A language that doesn't need a runtime, like C? A language that has only one available runtime, like node.js? A language that has a choice of runtimes but there are incompatibilities between them like Python or Ruby? A language that has a choice of runtimes from a choice of vendors like Java?

A runtime that can be used for a wide-variety of types of applications. JVM can really only be used for writing web servers and possibly daemons.

I'd even say daemons are a stretch. Having multiple JVMs running at once would crush a lot of systems.

The JVM and the Java ecosystem are basically all about long-running backend services. It's funny when you consider Java's roots as a simple language designed to enhance web pages.

Re: Frege: A JVM pure functional programming language in the spirit of Haskell

#74

Post by andrewflnr »

voxfrege wrote: post #65
tieTYT wrote: post #60

As a programmer who's getting annoyed and tired of Java's boilerplate, I welcome this. I went from Haskell to Clojure to JavaScript. I loved Haskell the language . What I don't is third party libraries are usually directly or indirectly (through a dependency) tied to an OS. I've heard, even on irc's #haskell, that it's hard to reuse code unless you're on linux. Coming from Java, this is a deal breaker for me. Then I…

> My concern is that I'd be 1 of 3 people who'd be using it. This concern is probably well founded. :) And yet. Remember, you get Java source code from the Frege compiler, and once you pack up your JAR with Proguard, say, nobody will be able to tell you didn't write it in Java. (Well, slightly exaggerated, but you could have used some obscure library, who knows?) So, if you have a small project, or some Haskell proje…

I suspect the GP is more worried about community support for the language than other people making fun of them for using it. :)

Re: Frege: A JVM pure functional programming language in the spirit of Haskell

#75

Post by shadowfox »

Touche wrote: post #50
tomkludy wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been playing with it some. It's nice, but I still prefer Haskell. I want to be able to separate pure from impure code, but F# doesn't seem to enforce that. (Unless I'm missing something?)

It doesn't. In fact, F# feels like it started off as a fairly pure functional language but some Microsoft PM said "it has to support every API in .NET" and so a lot of OOP stuff was bolted on the side. It feels like 2 different worlds in one language. You can easily get by never using the impure stuff but it's still there, taking up space.

F# has its origins in OCaml which has the same set of properties (ability to write impure code and has an object system, albeit one that not many people use). F# replaced that object system with the .NET one.

Re: Frege: A JVM pure functional programming language in the spirit of Haskell

#76

Post by jlgreco »

cgh wrote: post #70
Mikeb85 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? Plenty of apps run on the JVM (everything from enterprise apps to games to IDEs etc...). I'm no JVM evangelist (I use Haskell with the GHC), but this is just a false statement.

"Enterprise apps" generally means "enterprise web apps", not standalone, deployed applications. I've never seen a AAA game written in Java. The non-deterministic GC is a dealbreaker as is the speed and space constraints of eg consoles. The OP is generally correct: the JVM is a niche technology in a way. The Java ecosystem basically specialises in web apps and backend ESB-type stuff (shuttling data very quickly betwee…

I'd say that minecraft is in the realm of "AAA" profit and userbase, though not "AAA" budget or graphics.

That is the only example I can think of though, and it is certainly a stretch. (also their X-Box version isn't Java)

Re: Frege: A JVM pure functional programming language in the spirit of Haskell

#77

Post by chongli »

tieTYT wrote: post #60

As a programmer who's getting annoyed and tired of Java's boilerplate, I welcome this. I went from Haskell to Clojure to JavaScript. I loved Haskell the language . What I don't is third party libraries are usually directly or indirectly (through a dependency) tied to an OS. I've heard, even on irc's #haskell, that it's hard to reuse code unless you're on linux. Coming from Java, this is a deal breaker for me. Then I…

It's a real shame that FFI-dependent Haskell libraries don't build out of the box on platforms other than Linux. If you really like the language, have you considered some workarounds for this problem directly? It may be a lot easier to do a workaround than to switch to a new language entirely.

It sounds like multi-platform support is important to you, how do you intend to deploy your software? In many cases, you can get away with rolling up binaries and not worrying about trying to actually build the software on your target machine.

Re: Frege: A JVM pure functional programming language in the spirit of Haskell

#78

Post by dustingetz »

cgh wrote: post #51
cordite wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you look at the differences page, it is equivalent in power, but does not have the same expression. Pragmas now sorta start with @, and type classes are (in my opinion) kinda funky coming from Haskell.

Another difference not mentioned is given the use of recursion in Haskell and the JVM's lack of tail-call optimisation, I have to wonder how dangerous this is. I know Clojure has recur (I'm not a Clojure programmer) but unless Frege has something similar, I predict many an exploding stack.

It can compile to a loop. JVM can't optimize it for free at runtime. Scala has tail recursion elimination

Re: Frege: A JVM pure functional programming language in the spirit of Haskell

#79

Post by anon_d »

Tyr42 wrote: post #19

I like some of the differences where it was not constrained by Haskell's choices, like splitting up the Monad, Applicative, Functor instances, and namespacing of accessors. I also quite like the • for compose, with then some shims so that . works too if it's not being used for the namespacing.

Yeah, I'd like to see more languages using unicode identifiers. Seems to be a very unpopular approach, though :(

Re: Frege: A JVM pure functional programming language in the spirit of Haskell

#80

Post by dustingetz »

voxfrege wrote: post #65
tieTYT wrote: post #60

As a programmer who's getting annoyed and tired of Java's boilerplate, I welcome this. I went from Haskell to Clojure to JavaScript. I loved Haskell the language . What I don't is third party libraries are usually directly or indirectly (through a dependency) tied to an OS. I've heard, even on irc's #haskell, that it's hard to reuse code unless you're on linux. Coming from Java, this is a deal breaker for me. Then I…

> My concern is that I'd be 1 of 3 people who'd be using it. This concern is probably well founded. :) And yet. Remember, you get Java source code from the Frege compiler, and once you pack up your JAR with Proguard, say, nobody will be able to tell you didn't write it in Java. (Well, slightly exaggerated, but you could have used some obscure library, who knows?) So, if you have a small project, or some Haskell proje…

Any data structures on the public API would have to be marshaled from whatever JVM language into fredge. Even sharing code between scala and java can be painful and obvious.
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