Kofi Annan: Stop 'war on drugs' • Hacker News Board

Re: Kofi Annan: Stop 'war on drugs'

#71

Post by eitland » Wed, Nov 06, 2013, 5:14 PM UTC

Bsharp wrote: post #55

7952 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A concern is that the practicalities of such a legalization would just make things worse. It could make it much easier for children to get hold of. You would also need to define what is "pure" and police that for an endless list of possible products. It is difficult enough to keep salmonella out of food, effective regulation of cannabis sounds impossible. Any regulation would need to be sufficiently loose that you do…

> It could make it much easier for children to get hold of. There are currently no age restrictions on heroin. All a child needs is a morally-bankrupt drug dealer, which imo is easier than finding a morally-bankrupt store clerk if it were legal. > You would also need to define what is "pure" and police that for an endless list of possible products. 'Pure' can be easily defined, and it doesn't have to be 'pure' anyway…

Where I live McDonalds are the only fast food chain to hammer the fact that their burgers are 100% pure beef (produced inside the borders of my country even).

Don't know if it is correct but repeating it on tv for months sounds risky if they are lying.

Re: Kofi Annan: Stop 'war on drugs'

#72

Post by girvo » Wed, Nov 06, 2013, 5:15 PM UTC

Bsharp wrote: post #55

7952 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A concern is that the practicalities of such a legalization would just make things worse. It could make it much easier for children to get hold of. You would also need to define what is "pure" and police that for an endless list of possible products. It is difficult enough to keep salmonella out of food, effective regulation of cannabis sounds impossible. Any regulation would need to be sufficiently loose that you do…

> It could make it much easier for children to get hold of. There are currently no age restrictions on heroin. All a child needs is a morally-bankrupt drug dealer, which imo is easier than finding a morally-bankrupt store clerk if it were legal. > You would also need to define what is "pure" and police that for an endless list of possible products. 'Pure' can be easily defined, and it doesn't have to be 'pure' anyway…

I got addicted at 16. Was easier than convincing someone at a bottle shop to sell alcohol to me.

Re: Kofi Annan: Stop 'war on drugs'

#73

Post by 7952 » Wed, Nov 06, 2013, 5:17 PM UTC

Bsharp wrote: post #55

7952 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A concern is that the practicalities of such a legalization would just make things worse. It could make it much easier for children to get hold of. You would also need to define what is "pure" and police that for an endless list of possible products. It is difficult enough to keep salmonella out of food, effective regulation of cannabis sounds impossible. Any regulation would need to be sufficiently loose that you do…

> It could make it much easier for children to get hold of. There are currently no age restrictions on heroin. All a child needs is a morally-bankrupt drug dealer, which imo is easier than finding a morally-bankrupt store clerk if it were legal. > You would also need to define what is "pure" and police that for an endless list of possible products. 'Pure' can be easily defined, and it doesn't have to be 'pure' anyway…

> There are currently no age restrictions on heroin. All a child needs is a morally-bankrupt drug dealer, which imo is easier than finding a morally-bankrupt store clerk if it were legal.

It is very easy for underage people to get hold of alcohol. It is ridiculous to suggest that drugs would be any different. It would make it much easier to buy.

> Beer isn't pure alcohol, McDonald's burgers aren't pure beef, etc.

I still don't understand how you can regulate that. How exactly do you define "not increasingly harmful"? Presumably whatever the definition it risks creating a black market, or being very cheap; both outcomes would be negative.

> Comparing keeping salmonella out of food to keeping drugs clean is apples and oranges - they're entirely different problems.

Why? It would presumably need a similar system of inspection and rules. It doesn't just need to be safe for current drug users, but all the other people that may decide to give it a go. Why would people give up basic consumer rights?

Re: Kofi Annan: Stop 'war on drugs'

#74

Post by ZeroGravitas » Wed, Nov 06, 2013, 5:18 PM UTC

rthomas6 wrote: post #68

vkou wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that both drug prohibition and the War on Drugs both started as highly racist policies, it seems to be working as intended.

I'd like to read more about this. Do you have a source for this?

One random factoid, that's a favorite of mine: the Ku Klux Klan supported the right of women to vote. They did so because women voters supported temperence/prohibition. And those laws allowed them to target the Catholic Irish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan#Prohibition

Re: Kofi Annan: Stop 'war on drugs'

#75

Post by dragonwriter » Wed, Nov 06, 2013, 5:19 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #26

legutierr wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is comming out against the "war on drugs" really a career killer, still? I think some real leadership from public officials would quickly reverse the remnant of public support that exists for this so-called war.

You've vastly misjudged the battlefield. Among actual voters, the drug war is still seen favorably.

> Among actual voters, the drug war is still seen favorably.

Some elements of it obviously aren't, as we see marijuana legalization advancing (in some places, at least nominally, restricted to "medical" use, in other places more generally.)

Re: Kofi Annan: Stop 'war on drugs'

#76

Post by grault » Wed, Nov 06, 2013, 5:19 PM UTC

MichaelGG wrote: post #44

grault wrote: post #16

My idea would be: make them legal, tax them high (or make them accessible only after certain educational exams), from that money educate people, help them recovering. Teach them basic game theory and the term what trap is, what is it like to be the frog in the boiling water, etc. I'm confident I missed many aspects here, although really interested in: What are the problems with this model?

Taxing them really high will increase the likelihood of black market product, which goes against the public health aspect. You don't want a poor person buying junk and getting sick because they couldn't go to the store and buy proper medicine. Just like you wouldn't heavily tax aspirin or ibuprofen. Basic medical education should be provided as part of national education. Except, properly done, not the factually inco…

Makes sense. It could be difficult to raise money for prevention and rehabilitation purposes from the tax approach. Although maybe wealthy recreational users would happily "fund" the education / rehabilitation of the poor. Or maybe I'm just completely wrong here :D

I agree with the other points you've discussed.

Re: Kofi Annan: Stop 'war on drugs'

#77

Post by k-mcgrady » Wed, Nov 06, 2013, 5:20 PM UTC

tlongren wrote: post #47

k-mcgrady wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love to see figures on this but my guess is it would create more jobs that it would make unnecessary.

You're probably right, no administration would ever admit that, though.

True. I can't remember the exact details but when a leading UK government advisor on drugs advised changes to the governments ridiculous classification of drugs and favoured one based on evidence of the harm they cause he was fired "because he cannot be both a government adviser and a campaigner against government policy"[1] Governments aren't willing to be forward thinking or even rational on the issue.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Nutt#Dismissal

Re: Kofi Annan: Stop 'war on drugs'

#78

Post by darrylb42 » Wed, Nov 06, 2013, 5:20 PM UTC

rthomas6 wrote: post #68

vkou wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that both drug prohibition and the War on Drugs both started as highly racist policies, it seems to be working as intended.

I'd like to read more about this. Do you have a source for this?

Last Call: The rise and Fall of prohibition is a very interesting read on the topic.

http://www.amazon.com/Last-Call-Rise-Fall-Prohibition-ebook/...

Re: Kofi Annan: Stop 'war on drugs'

#79

Post by Shivetya » Wed, Nov 06, 2013, 5:20 PM UTC

declan wrote: post #45

k-mcgrady wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> "nobody is trying to outlaw tobacco" They aren't trying to outlaw tobacco but they are trying to stop it's use in a different way. Banning smoking in public places (which I agree with), health warnings on packaging, and the latest thing they are trying to do is ban branding on packaging (i.e. cigarettes can only be sold in plain white boxes). In many places they also can't be on display (displays are covered) and…

"They aren't trying to outlaw tobacco but they are trying to stop it's use in a different way" Yep. Also through taxes. In the U.S., taxes on a single pack of cigarettes can be as high as $5.36, depending on where you live.

and through the ACA, it is expressly legal to charge smokers more for insurance. As in, up to 50 (FIFTY) percent more.

Re: Kofi Annan: Stop 'war on drugs'

#80

Post by girvo » Wed, Nov 06, 2013, 5:21 PM UTC

randomdata wrote: post #50

grault wrote: post #16

My idea would be: make them legal, tax them high (or make them accessible only after certain educational exams), from that money educate people, help them recovering. Teach them basic game theory and the term what trap is, what is it like to be the frog in the boiling water, etc. I'm confident I missed many aspects here, although really interested in: What are the problems with this model?

The real outward problem of drugs is poverty. As we've seen from a certain mayor who has been in the news lately, the issue people have with drug users is them "breaking into your house for $5"[1]. If you have the means to use the drugs without financial repercussions, then it is "okay" (a term I use lightly here). If you tax the drugs at a high rate and make them still inaccessible to some degree, then the problem p…

I knew (personally) of a surprisingly large number of white-collar functional addicts who worked in the city and earned mid six figures.

Hell, I technically am in the category myself with my Suboxone treatment. My life is better than fine, and has been since I went from paying $400 a day for heroin, to $5 a day for suboxone.

My lowest points where when I was poor and addicted. I never stole, and went through withdrawals instead, but I can tell you it crosses the mind of any addict at some point. Take that away, and the impact on society is lessened considerably.