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Seagate just reinvented the disk interface using Ethernet

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Re: Seagate just reinvented the disk interface using Ethernet

#71
post #47
post #9

Radical simplification and IMO this is great. Remains to be seen how this will fare in comparison with RAID. I'd wager that google would be very interested, if they already not doing something like that in their data centers. Nerdy me likes idea of POE hub and bunch of drives doing their own thing. Also pretty good time to start writing stuff to support this into Linux kernel and developing support apps. my 2c

I'd wager that google would be very interested, if they already not doing something like that in their data centers. I wonder about that. It's usually a lot cheaper to move computation to data, rather than data to computation. The model that Seagate is presenting here strikes me as wrong, because it assumes very fat pipes (or specialized topologies) for any non-trivial app. At the scale Google operates at, I just don…

This model is simply Seagate trying to do via IP what FibreChannel has allowed with expensive hardware most of us don't have.

Yes, it means your switch must not fail. But if you worry about your switch failing, you have that worry if it's not handling storage too, and you deal with it with redundancy. Moving the storage to hang off a switch does not change that - if you have a single switch and it fails, your servers are just as unavailable either way.

But hanging storage off your switches means it is possible to have servers take over drives of failing servers, which makes many other failure scenarios easier to handle.

In terms of pipes, yes, that is a concern for some uses. It won't be fast unless you go to 10GE, and 10GE switches are still hopelessly overpriced. But "most people" do not serve up gigabits of content, and could do just fine with slower drives hanging off cheap 1Gbps switches.

I already assume not only that my drives will fail, but that the network and servers will fail too. Which means I need to replicate data over many servers on different networks. In that case having the drives be directly addressable over TCP/IP is not an added complexity, and it opens up so many opportunities in improving flexibility of server enclosures etc.

Re: Seagate just reinvented the disk interface using Ethernet

#72
post #43

If this means 10gbps ethernet switches finally comes down in price, awesome... Otherwise this will be hampered by the fact that the 6Gbps of SATA III is already too slow to take maximum advantage of many SSD devices (hence OCZ experiments with effectively extending PCIe over cables to the devices.

These are 4 TB units of 5900 RPM spinning rust.

Re: Seagate just reinvented the disk interface using Ethernet

#73

"The Seagate Kinetic Open Storage platform eliminates the storage server tier of traditional data center architectures by enabling applications to speak directly to the storage device, thereby reducing expenses associated with the acquisition, deployment, and support of hyperscale storage infrastructures." First of all: Hyperscale? I'm not a retarded non-technical manager or MBO, so I just stopped listening to your e…

I think you're misreading this. Nobody will just bolt a few thousand of these drives to a switch and call it done. That's not practical.

On the other hand it opens up a massive opportunity for people to create their own storage fabric using these drives as building blocks. That means instead of having to hit up EMC for a big drive array, you will eventually be able to get an open-source implementation of same if you want, or one built on open standards so you're not locked into a particular vendor.

For companies like Facebook, Google, Apple or Yahoo that are storing petabytes of information, a drive subsystem like this is surely a dream for their engineers. Now instead of having to attach the drives to servers that do little more than wrap S-ATA or SAS into Ethernet for merging into a larger storage cluster, the drive does that all by itself.

Plus, imagine how Backblaze might be able to re-engineer their pod (http://blog.backblaze.com/2013/02/20/180tb-of-good-vibration...) to use this.

Re: Seagate just reinvented the disk interface using Ethernet

#74
post #47
post #9

Radical simplification and IMO this is great. Remains to be seen how this will fare in comparison with RAID. I'd wager that google would be very interested, if they already not doing something like that in their data centers. Nerdy me likes idea of POE hub and bunch of drives doing their own thing. Also pretty good time to start writing stuff to support this into Linux kernel and developing support apps. my 2c

I'd wager that google would be very interested, if they already not doing something like that in their data centers. I wonder about that. It's usually a lot cheaper to move computation to data, rather than data to computation. The model that Seagate is presenting here strikes me as wrong, because it assumes very fat pipes (or specialized topologies) for any non-trivial app. At the scale Google operates at, I just don…

[deleted]

Re: Seagate just reinvented the disk interface using Ethernet

#75
post #71
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd wager that google would be very interested, if they already not doing something like that in their data centers. I wonder about that. It's usually a lot cheaper to move computation to data, rather than data to computation. The model that Seagate is presenting here strikes me as wrong, because it assumes very fat pipes (or specialized topologies) for any non-trivial app. At the scale Google operates at, I just don…

This model is simply Seagate trying to do via IP what FibreChannel has allowed with expensive hardware most of us don't have. Yes, it means your switch must not fail. But if you worry about your switch failing, you have that worry if it's not handling storage too, and you deal with it with redundancy. Moving the storage to hang off a switch does not change that - if you have a single switch and it fails, your servers…

your servers are just as unavailable either way

Right, but having local disks reduces the sources of failure, reduces contention, reduces latency, reduces the complexity of failures, and is thus much nicer to work with. Computers and networks would be easier for us to debug if they had a binary works well/doesn't work at all, but we all know they don't. Especially networks.

The simplest and sanest architecture is keeping dumb disks local to where computation is running (and yes, that may also include duplicating data across several servers). Anything else is asking for more crazy classes of failure. Been there, bled there, not going back there.

Re: Seagate just reinvented the disk interface using Ethernet

#76

"The Seagate Kinetic Open Storage platform eliminates the storage server tier of traditional data center architectures by enabling applications to speak directly to the storage device, thereby reducing expenses associated with the acquisition, deployment, and support of hyperscale storage infrastructures." First of all: Hyperscale? I'm not a retarded non-technical manager or MBO, so I just stopped listening to your e…

I think you're misreading this. Nobody will just bolt a few thousand of these drives to a switch and call it done. That's not practical. On the other hand it opens up a massive opportunity for people to create their own storage fabric using these drives as building blocks. That means instead of having to hit up EMC for a big drive array, you will eventually be able to get an open-source implementation of same if you…

I think you're missing the value prop of the BigStorageCos like EMC and NetApp.

If all they provided was a disk shelf and loose cluster coupling, nobody would buy that.

The big win (for those companies which consider it a win) is in data management and namespacing. Storage virtualization, if you will. I can have a hundred disks spinning behind a storage controller which lumps them together into three storage volumes. I can serve file data off two of them (say, NFS on one and CIFS on the other) and stick some LUNs on the third and serve blocks (iSCSI). I can dedupe, snapshot, and migrate these data at will.

FWIW. Not belittling the Seagate announcement. Just clarifying why the article is correct in suggesting that EMC and NetApp aren't particularly worried about the announcement.

Re: Seagate just reinvented the disk interface using Ethernet

#77

"The Seagate Kinetic Open Storage platform eliminates the storage server tier of traditional data center architectures by enabling applications to speak directly to the storage device, thereby reducing expenses associated with the acquisition, deployment, and support of hyperscale storage infrastructures." First of all: Hyperscale? I'm not a retarded non-technical manager or MBO, so I just stopped listening to your e…

I think you're misreading this. Nobody will just bolt a few thousand of these drives to a switch and call it done. That's not practical. On the other hand it opens up a massive opportunity for people to create their own storage fabric using these drives as building blocks. That means instead of having to hit up EMC for a big drive array, you will eventually be able to get an open-source implementation of same if you…

I am imagining it. The only effectively useful feature of this is actually adding an extra server layer, not removing one.

--

Case 1: Startup X makes a webapp cluster that looks up user information and returns results. It calls a library, which looks up a hash key to query a disk, and returns data.

Problem 1: Lack of load balancing. If there are three disks, and user FRANK is on disk two, and user FRANK's data is getting queried 50x more than the other users, that second disk is toast performance-wise.

Problem 2: No redundancy plus short lifespan of disk means when the disks die the user data goes too.

--

Case 2: Big Company Y creates a storage application layer to intelligently do things with the data. They have a small cluster of machines with apps that take queries and do things with the data, and manage the data using key/value pairs on disks attached to a private storage switch.

Problem 1: Dependent on ethernet (and its overhead, and latency) for each query doesn't perform as fast as other disk interconnects; have to use hacks to increase performance. Network management now critical component of your storage functionality.

Problem 2: Because the Virtual Memory Manager is no longer managing a filesystem cache, all key/value fields must be cached by the application, so you're re-implementing a VMM layer in your storage application. (Because nobody is stupid enough to not cache random disk queries)

Problem 3: Relational queries become almost completely useless. Performance drags due to all the individual queries, and you end up building a new cache layer just so your database can speed up searches, or at worst case end up with an index-only cluster of these disks.

--

As you can tell by reading Backblaze's site, there are lots of different uses for storage and different requirements for each. But one thing that's pretty widely acknowledged is it's more efficient to have a really long single piece of storage versus lots of very short pieces. I imagine Backblaze will look at this and go: Why don't we just make our own?

Re: Seagate just reinvented the disk interface using Ethernet

#78

As a counterpoint: A slightly less gushing article with some good comments (yes, even on El Reg) http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/10/22/seagate_letting_apps... Comments along the lines of "Backups? Snapshots? RAID? How they handling this then?"

Thanks for this - surprised by the Basho/Riak connection.

Re: Seagate just reinvented the disk interface using Ethernet

#79
Seems like an odd invention given the industry is moving to storage technologies with sub-microsecond latencies, which is at least an order of magnitude better than 10ge is usually capable of. Still at least 'object store' style operations are much richer, so the need is avoided to make many round trips to the disk to resolve the location of a database record.

Hmm, which raises the question: how much RAM should a hard disk have? In a regular architecture, that database lookup could be meaningfully cached (and you could design and provision exactly to ensure your entire set is cached). Opaque K/V "disk" seems less appealing from this angle

Re: Seagate just reinvented the disk interface using Ethernet

#80
post #49

This seems like a reinvention of Coraid's ATAoE, which has the added benefit of already being in the mainline kernel, good server/target support (vblade), hardware products shipping now, a lack of IP/TCP overhead, and a dead-simple protocol. http://aoetools.sourceforge.net/

ATAoE was- to my knowledge- never integrated into a drive controller.
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