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TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

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Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#71

Post by betterunix »

canistr wrote: post #13
canistr wrote: post #4

But couldn't it be argued that the use of body-scanners functions as a form of strong deterrent for potential plots? If a potential terrorist understands that they will eventually be caught or that the stakes to beat the system are too high, they will look at alternative forms of terrorism simply because the investment to beat airport security is too high.

And to sort of extend my point. We always laugh at CEOs/CTOs when they fail to provision money/resources for security software and security measures in organizations. That, instead of paying for security up-front, they wait until after a disaster to respond with security measures. In this case, by criticizing the spending of scanners as a deterrent to potential plots, are we not playing the part of CEO who complains…

Keep in mind that we are equally critical of CEOs and CTOs who spend money on the wrong things e.g. the classic "We have antivirus software installed, therefore we are secure from hackers!" AV software does nothing to protect your network from a vulnerability in sendmail.

Similarly, the nude scanners would have done very little to stop the 9/11 hijackers, whose weapons were simple and equivalent weapons could be improvised from items that anyone can find on the other side of a checkpoint. Whatever we were doing in August 2001 to stop less-determined attacks was working back then and would work equally well today. The simplest conclusion is that whatever else is being done to stop a 9/11-style attack is working, and that the checkpoints are just a distraction.

Not that we should be surprised by that. The TSA was going to allow people to carry small knives through the checkpoints, and noted that you are already allowed to carry far more dangerous items through -- except for box cutters, because of their appearance. Then there was an outcry from people who are terrified of knives being on airplanes, and so the policy change never happened. With that kind of logic, it is a stretch to say that the checkpoints are keeping us safe.

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#72

Post by betterunix »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #28
zzzeek wrote: post #7

I know I'm throwing my karma down the toilet here but domestic-sourced airline terrorism has happened before. The TSA (edit: OK, whoever it was that scanned our bags and ran us through the metal detector, if it was not "the TSA") was unaware of 9/11 as well. Argue all you want that we should just tolerate the occasional 9/11-style (edit: or the random pipe bomb blowing out the side of the plane, cockpit doors can't p…

Have you ever been in line in a long TSA queue at a major airport? See anybody get scanned before getting in that line? With a coordinated attack across multiple airports, you could kill far more people just while they're standing in line to get their TSA gaterape procedure performed than you could by attacking while onboard an aircraft. The aircraft attack vector has already been played out. Lets keep sane regulatio…

"Have you ever been in line in a long TSA queue at a major airport? See anybody get scanned before getting in that line?"

Let's not give them any ideas...

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#73

Post by toomuchtodo »

betterunix wrote: post #72
toomuchtodo wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever been in line in a long TSA queue at a major airport? See anybody get scanned before getting in that line? With a coordinated attack across multiple airports, you could kill far more people just while they're standing in line to get their TSA gaterape procedure performed than you could by attacking while onboard an aircraft. The aircraft attack vector has already been played out. Lets keep sane regulatio…

"Have you ever been in line in a long TSA queue at a major airport? See anybody get scanned before getting in that line?" Let's not give them any ideas...

I think we're well passed giving them ideas; there's a FPS mission designed around the concept of the attack:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_surrounding_Call_...

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#74

Post by herbig »

tsaoutourpants wrote: post #52
herbig wrote: post #27

If I were trying to champion a legitimate cause, I would steer way clear of acknowledging Infowars by name or calling them "journalists." You could just say that a third party discovered it or something, but you definitely don't want to imply that they're fighting the good fight alongside you.

I respect that they found and published the documents. I don't buy most of what they are selling, but in this instance, their journalism brought an important issue to light.

The problem is in the perception it gives to those reading your post.

Infowars is not a legitimate journalistic effort. It is SEO optimized linkbait garbage created with the intent of selling videos, speaking engagements, and other assorted junk to gullible people.

There is a whole network of crazy headed by the likes of Alex Jones that cross-link each other sharing ridiculous claims masquerading as real causes and small injustices blown totally out of proportion to support insanely tangential ideas.

Some of these people also believe the government is run by lizard Jews from outer space.

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#75

Post by Zigurd »

betterunix wrote: post #64
k2enemy wrote: post #15

I'm a huge critic of the TSA and would be thrilled to see it dismantled, but I always find these kinds of arguments a little intellectually dishonest. It could be that “terrorist threat groups present in the Homeland are not known to be actively plotting against civil aviation targets or airports” because we have scanners in place that deter that kind of threat. Now, I don't believe this is the case, as plenty of res…

"By that logic, we should remove security at Fort Knox because it never gets robbed." There are, however, active threats against Fort Knox -- we know people want to rob it and that they would given the chance. On the other hand, it is not clear that there are people who would attack airplanes were we to scale back the TSA's operations (particularly airport checkpoints).

> There are, however, active threats against Fort Knox -- we know people want to rob it

Fort Knox seems like a bad example of necessary security. How far would you get with a convoy of trucks, each carrying some tons of gold? Does that gold need more security than a nuclear weapon?

Fort Knox seems more like an example of security theater, designed to impress people with the idea that a pile of gold matters a whit compared to large modern nation's budget.

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#76

Post by Zigurd »

betterunix wrote: post #72
toomuchtodo wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever been in line in a long TSA queue at a major airport? See anybody get scanned before getting in that line? With a coordinated attack across multiple airports, you could kill far more people just while they're standing in line to get their TSA gaterape procedure performed than you could by attacking while onboard an aircraft. The aircraft attack vector has already been played out. Lets keep sane regulatio…

"Have you ever been in line in a long TSA queue at a major airport? See anybody get scanned before getting in that line?" Let's not give them any ideas...

Too late. The Boston Marathon bombings should have made large crowds at airport security checks a critical priority to get rid of. But noooo.

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#77

Post by gonzo »

herbig wrote: post #74
tsaoutourpants wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I respect that they found and published the documents. I don't buy most of what they are selling, but in this instance, their journalism brought an important issue to light.

The problem is in the perception it gives to those reading your post. Infowars is not a legitimate journalistic effort. It is SEO optimized linkbait garbage created with the intent of selling videos, speaking engagements, and other assorted junk to gullible people. There is a whole network of crazy headed by the likes of Alex Jones that cross-link each other sharing ridiculous claims masquerading as real causes and s…

> Some of these people also believe the government is run by lizard Jews from outer space.

Oh man, see? that's something I could get behind.

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#79

Post by molecule »

zzzeek wrote: post #65
codegeek wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article was not about having no airline security. It was about how ridiculous the TSA body scanners/nude search/patdowns are. There is a difference.

the article was specifically about actual plots to attack airplanes: "No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US". And that since there's no evidence of any plots, therefore we don't need a TSA. This is a crappy argument because airplane attacks are known to have occurred in the past without warning. Attack the TSA on their corruptness/ineffectiveness/ineptitude fine, but not based on "nobody wants to atta…

your argument is a strawman: "no evidence => no TSA / no aircraft-boarding security." that is clearly not a rebuttal of the argument that is presented, which is that the TSA has previously presented the existence of terrorist plots against aviation as a reason for sticking their hands down passengers' pants and performing nude scans of passengers. but the TSA's reasons have turned out to be false, so therefore we should not let the TSA stick their hands down passengers' pants nor perform nude scans of passengers

Re: TSA Admits In Leaked Doc: No Evidence of Terrorist Plots Against Aviation in US

#80

Post by yeukhon »

tsaoutourpants wrote: post #44
toomuchtodo wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever been in line in a long TSA queue at a major airport? See anybody get scanned before getting in that line? With a coordinated attack across multiple airports, you could kill far more people just while they're standing in line to get their TSA gaterape procedure performed than you could by attacking while onboard an aircraft. The aircraft attack vector has already been played out. Lets keep sane regulatio…

Terrorists have indeed already done this at Domodedevo airport in Moscow, Russia. By creating giant lines of people at security checkpoint (along with a scattering of federal employees), the TSA has created the perfect target.

Does it matter if you consider employing several vans running into the airport during holiday rush hours?

If dangerous is present at any moment in time, what do we do? How can we reduce searchable threats? Can we do a scan on entrance to and exit from airport lobby?

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