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On being the right size (1928)

marxists.org

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Re: On being the right size (1928)

#71

This is really an argument against socialism as the communists tried to implement it. Where the state nationalizes every industry and all workers become employed by the state which plans everything centrally. Most socialists have moved beyond that model and would instead prefer to see a system of enterprise that uses co-op's instead of privately or publicly owned business. Some industries would probably be nationaliz…

"Most socialists have moved beyond that model and would instead prefer to see a system of enterprise that uses co-op's instead of privately or publicly owned business. Some industries would probably be nationalized or socialized..." One of the earliest (and now largely forgotten) criticisms of Marx came from the American philosopher Benjamin Tucker, who facilely forsaw the rise of the communist implementations as an…

This is a superb comment. Thank you.

Re: On being the right size (1928)

#72
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One problem with this is people as a group tend to be stupid. What stops the workforce from voting to reduce their work hours to 30 hours per week? Take the Automotive unions as an example. Their demands contributed in many ways to the US auto companies nearly going bankrupt and requiring state bailouts. Moving manufacturing to cheaper places can have a bad local effect in pockets that depend on it, but there is a ne…

>Now, foreign companies produce many of their cars in the united states with union free labor and american companies have started producing cars in mexico so they can pay the pensions for all the retired union employees. Toyota's plants are UAW who makes the same demands as they do to GM. It's management that failed the US car industry, not the unions.

ehh, I can't find anything about this other than the following article from last year:

"While the UAW continues to represent Detroit’s Big Three manufacturers, it has all but completely failed to gain representation rights for the so-called transplant lines now run by virtually all the major foreign-owned automakers, from BMW to Toyota to Volkswagen. "

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/foreign-automakers-stubbornl...

Re: On being the right size (1928)

#73

As amazing as the article is, i have one confusion. What about dinosaurs? In the eagle part, he said eagles CAN'T be as big as tigers etc. But what about Pterodactyls? How did they manage to be so big? Oh and weren't all the dinosaurs cold-blooded? So, if I am not mistaken, didn't the author say that we get over the problem of heat loss by being warm-blooded? Or does that just mean that they had to eat ALOT more? (th…

Dinosaurs were not cold blooded as it turns out. They live on today as birds.

We don't actually know that. And part of the reason is "dinosaurs" is such a broad term, encompassing so many species of many millions of years. I would think it's mostly likely that some dinosaurs were cold-blooded and some warm-blooded.

I have also attended a talk that suggested that some dinosaurs almost certainly didn't fit the warm-blooded or cold-blooded model, and that despite mechanically being cold-blooded, their large size alone kept them warm. So in many ways those ones were practically warm-blooded.

Re: On being the right size (1928)

#75

A great post about the same problem but from a Math/CS perspective, and as fun to read: http://cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/weblog/918.html [Cosma Shalizi's "In Soviet Union, Optimization Problem Solves You]

Red Plenty was such a good book. Highly recommended.

Re: On being the right size (1928)

#76
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of interest, what do you think an 'owner' does in an enterprise with an executive branch, apart from supplying passive capital at the start?

Owners ensure the efficient allocation of capital. Their job is to pull investment from unprofitable activities and move it to profitable ones. They may only make one or two decisions a year, but those are weighty decisions with large consequences. With good decisions may come large profits with what looks to an outsider to be little effort, but they may also lose it all with just one mistake... appointing the wrong…

Cool, that's certainly important. I probably disagree that 1 or 2 decisions a year counts as "real jobs that do real work", though.

Re: On being the right size (1928)

#77
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fail to see a problem with this at all. 1: The company goes out of business (due to inefficiency and an inability to compete) in which case it was a shitty business and shouldn't exist in the first place. 2: The company hires someone who can do the work for $5 per hour, in which case the worker who needs $10 to live is simply not living within their means. I equate this to someone earning minimum wage complaining t…

This is what seems logical, but most of the time the second thing will happen, because there are many people who think every job is better than no job. There are lesser jobs than people, so the companies have the bigger lever.

Before there was minimum wage established in the US there was this job of pump attendant. Pump attendant was someone who would pump your gas into your car. These were jobs that paid next to nothing. These jobs disappeared almost immediately after the minimal wage law was enacted.

Now, think about it. A 16-year old would come to the gas station after school and pump gas for (let's say) 2usd/hour. But he would also learn other skills. At that time there were also body shops/car mechanics at the gas station. Because they could use cheap 2usd/hr labor of this kid. And the kid could learn car mechanics. After finishing school the kid could be actually pretty good mechanic. Go there on the job market nad having this real-life experience demand 7usd/hr job of a car mechanic. That was also a time that unemployment rate among the young was the lowest out of all the age groups. Soon after the minimal wage law was enacted the unemployment rate among the young started to be the highest among all ages group. Not only that, but also there is no one to help you at the gas pump today in the US. There are no car mechanics at the gas stations too. These people are permanently unemployed. Because 16 year old after school isn't worth the current minimal wage. He's worth half of it. He could be worth the minimal wage enacted by the Government after 6 months experience while he would be paid market rate as gas pump attendant. But that's illegal now. It's illegal to hire him, pay him and let him grow to better position. He is permanently unemployed now. Maybe for years. Again, the unemployment rate among the young is the highest among all group ages. Before the minimal wage law it was the lowest. But socialism isn't about letting people who want to work, work. About letting them grow and prosper in their future. It is about permanent ruin. 60% of people below the age of 30 in Spain are unemployed. The country is doomed because of socialism. And doesn't even get it.

Re: On being the right size (1928)

#78

This is really an argument against socialism as the communists tried to implement it. Where the state nationalizes every industry and all workers become employed by the state which plans everything centrally. Most socialists have moved beyond that model and would instead prefer to see a system of enterprise that uses co-op's instead of privately or publicly owned business. Some industries would probably be nationaliz…

It is an argument against a very specific form of socialism as implemented by marxist-leninists. Already by the end of the 1800's there was a wide schism between left communists/liberalist marxists, anarchist communists, Luxembourgist/Spartakists and a number of other anti-authoritarian communist ideologies on one hand, and Leninists on the other about the role of the state in the socialist transition phase, where the left communists and liberalist marxists have consistently been against the idea of a vanguard party (the leninist party model) and against the idea of a strong state.

"Left communism" is generally defined by being "to the left of Leninism" (EDIT: And many left communists does not consider Leninism a socialist ideology at all), though it is worth pointing out that Leninism in itself is not necessarily authoritarian. The left communist criticism of Leninism initially focused on the (as it turned out) well founded risk that having a vanguard party following a nearly military discipline and that was not intended to include regular people in the party decision making provided a massive potential threat if it were to be abused (as it of course ended up being - it was the ultimate cultist echo-chamber combined with a fair number of power hungry people mixed in with the idealists).

Most socialists have always been against this model, and most communists were arguably also against the leninist model until at least 1920 or so. After the April 1917 revolution, the Bolsheviks was a small-ish minority group even in Russia, next to the Mensheviks, Socialist-Revolutionaries, Left Socialist-Revolutionaries, most of whome were left communists, other forms of socialist revolutionaries, and some reformists.

After the Bolshevik coup (the October Revolution - I don't like calling it a revolution, as it only had the support of a relatively small minority - it succeeded only because the Bolshevik support was largely concentrated in a few of the big cities, giving them the ability to cease control of the still weakened government apparatus), the Leninist model gained a lot of undeserved support, and cemented its position thanks to the combination of the perceived successes of the Bolsheviks (even some fairly right wing writers came back from the Soviet Union impressed with progress in things like electrification and got caught up in it), the civil war and the capitalist countries support for the Whites, which made it easy for the Bolsheviks to excuse pretty much anything they wanted to do by claiming they were fighting foreign funded anti-Russian/anti-Soviet counter-revolutionaries, and where the anti-Bolshevik fervour in the Western press made it impossible for socialists to trust them - even when they were right about the later excesses especially under Stalin.

Left communism was still widespread enough by 1920, with left communist groups in several instances still participating in demonstrations and small scale attempted revolts and armed attacks, to make Lenin publish a pamphlet ridiculing it ("Left Communism: An Infantile Disorder"). A number of prominent left communists who had tried to remain with the Bolsheviks and try to influence the party, and many more outside it, eventually lost their lives over it as especially Stalin dialled up the terror to get full control and left communism was seen as a considerable threat.

Also note that while Haldane later became skeptical about the Soviet Union, when he wrote this article, he was well on his way to becoming a Marxist-Leninist, arguably a Stalinist. As late as 1962 he reiterated his admiration for Stalin....

Anyway, though we agree that the Marxist-Leninist/Stalinist idea of socialism was fundamentally broken, what you describe is a specific type of socialism that is quite far from the mainstream today. Most socialists are social democrats. Within social democratic parties you do find some support for co-ops, but as limited tendencies (e.g. in the UK, the Co-operative Party is in permanent alliance of some sort with the Labour Party). Within most revolutionary socialist organisations finding support for the coop movement is relatively rare, as it is seen as too limited. You do find quite a lot (to the extent you can talk of "a lot" in organisations of this size...) of support for left communist ideologies like council communism and market communism though, which share characteristics similar to those you describe.

Re: On being the right size (1928)

#79
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not very different from having a company with an incompetent board of directors. In fact, it is exactly the same thing except in the Yugoslavia scenario every worker in the company would have a seat at the board. While it is true that some people could screw up their workplace for short term gains, is it more or less likely than an "investor" milking the company for profits and running the business to the grou…

Who do you think is more likely to be incompetent, the board of directors of McDonald's or 10 employees chosen at random throughout the entire organization?

/sarcasm/ Come on! All people are equal! /sarcasm/

Re: On being the right size (1928)

#80

This is really an argument against socialism as the communists tried to implement it. Where the state nationalizes every industry and all workers become employed by the state which plans everything centrally. Most socialists have moved beyond that model and would instead prefer to see a system of enterprise that uses co-op's instead of privately or publicly owned business. Some industries would probably be nationaliz…

You're describing syndicalism; it's not true that it was never implemented by the communists. The Soviet Union had a very serious go at it, allowing the artel as an economic unit (essentially a kind of co-op), and allowing people to freely sell products of their own labor. Within months, this led to a renewed stratification of society, the emergence of a nouveau rich class, and something approaching a return to capitalism (some people's labor is more profitable than others'). In the case of the Soviet Union, this led to a crackdown on the labor market. They also made attempts to organize along trade union lines instead - which reduces the stratification problem somewhat since a trade is not a single economic unit - but having the electricians and the mechanics within a factory report to different management was not practicable. The USSR came to its system of government-run conglomerates because it was the only way they found to combine socialism with getting at least something done; it was not their initial intention to have everything run by the government, if only because the didn't really want the management burden.

In other cases, the evolution towards capitalism just ran its course. Israel stumbled into syndicalism by default - its labor unions and cooperatives predate the state. In virtually all cases, the cooperatives did not grant new members the same rights as the founding members. E.g. the bus cooperative - which started out as a free association of owner-drivers - now relies on hired labor for most of the actual driving, with wages the same as any other driving job in the capitalist free market. The final stop for this kind of developments is in the unionized ports, where they have full union members making tens of thousands of dollars a month for sinecure jobs, with a lot of the gruntwork being done by minimum-wage hired labor with no rights. It's nice to talk about how "the workers" will not vote for this or that, but when it comes to voting members - of anything - voting themselves more rights than the people asking to join, they have, they did, and they will vote for that.

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