Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why I gave up my US passport

bbc.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 107 posts

Re: Why I gave up my US passport

#71

Post by victorf »

pekk wrote: post #52
beedogs wrote: post #2

I haven't renounced yet, but it's so very tempting. The arrogance of the US's dual-taxation bullshit is enough of a reason to consider it.

Be honest: it's not really about your perception of arrogance in a tax policy. It's really about the money. You think you are entitled to the privileges of US citizenship but somehow exempt from its legal obligations.

Obviously you are incorrect, the GP is claiming that the tax burden costs more than the worth of any privileges he's getting. I bet it's more a problem of choosing where to go permanently that isn't equally awful in a different way. Your assertion is ridiculous, as if everyone thinking about it who doesn't immediately renounce is getting fat off "entitlements" and is loving it.

Re: Why I gave up my US passport

#72

Post by victorf »

philiphodgen wrote: post #58
MichaelGG wrote: post #3

What I'd be more interested in is if there is harassment for doing so. My daughter is an American citizen unfortunately (happenstance of birth), but won't be living in the US for any foreseeable reason. She'll be burdened with tax and reporting issues all her life if she doesn't renounce. But if she does renounce, will they hassle her when visiting family? What about if she does do some temporary work in the US, will…

At the moment the U.S. government is remarkably sane about this. People who renounce citizenship can re-enter the USA on tourist visas, get work visas (like an L-1), etc. They can even get green cards and re-acquire citizenship. "Sane" will continue until we have a critical mass of people like Senator Schumer in the Senate. Disclaimer: I am a lawyer. And I do lots and lots of expatriation cases.

But not if you explicitly renounce to avoid taxes, there's a checkbox for that in amongst the "have you ever committed acts of terror?" questions.

Re: Why I gave up my US passport

#73

Post by coopdog »

chrsstrm wrote: post #62
NamTaf wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What benefit from paying income taxes, exactly? You're not living there, so you don't benefit from any of the social services that income tax funds. Just about every other country I can think of does not tax citizens abroad who do not earn money on their native soil. What makes you think the US system is right and all the others are wrong?

It's a pretty flimsy metaphor, but just because I go on long trips and stay in hotels, doesn't mean I'm not obligated to pay rent on my apartment back home. My status as tenant is recognized through my contribution of my monthly rent. Without it, I have no standing. My decision to live elsewhere, either in the short term or longer, means I either have to deal with paying double housing or give up my apartment.

Most countries will, if you declare that you are closing up shop and living in anther another country for more than a year, allow you to cease all involvement with that country (including tax, levies, welfare), and then welcome you back as a citizen when you decide to come home. It's just too complicated otherwise.

Re: Why I gave up my US passport

#74

Post by LekkoscPiwa »

yapcguy wrote: post #19
LekkoscPiwa wrote: post #6

Some of the stuff the people in the article write is just plain stupid. If I could get US citizenship for my newly born daughter (born in Poland) after being in the US total just 5 years, why she couldn't get it done, is beyond me. People who have lived in EU complaining about US burocracy and pointing it as a reason for giving up on an US citizenship are beyond me too. US taxation system is a walk in a park compared…

What may be driving some people is simply the fear of getting the paperwork wrong. The penalties listed on the forms are scary. You can't just do it in Turbotax for 50 bucks, you need a qualified tax professional to help you. Good luck finding one familiar with the latest US regulation when you're abroad. The fees will be in the thousands, every year, for the rest of your life. The financial toll and mental stress al…

I do it with Turbo Tax for 50 bucks. The thing is not to open an account outside of the US. If you follow that rule you are fine and your return won't be longer than US return. If you really, really need that account in a foreign bank simply don't advertise left & right you are an US citizen and open an account using your local (German, Canadian, whatever) driver's license. I have lived in Poland 3 years so far with US citizenships it costs nothing. And the benefits outweight any issues that might be there in any case.

Re: Why I gave up my US passport

#75

Post by martey »

auctiontheory wrote: post #59
martey wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What you're not getting is that these people have to pay full taxes in the place they're actually living. In that case, they can claim a "Foreign Earned Income Exclusion" [1] which reduces or eliminates their American tax liability for up to $97,600 of income that they are "paying full taxes" on. > A place you're not living has no business collecting further taxes from you. As other comments have noted, just becaus…

As has already been stated many, many times, for most Americans living abroad who are not super-rich, the issue isn't the taxation - it's the complexity (and associated penalties) of the reporting requirements. Basically, the US government's attitude toward Americans living outside the US, much like the US attitude toward non-Americans wherever they live, is "F * You." Perhaps you think that this attitude is somehow…

> Perhaps you think that this attitude is somehow justified.

I think it is a complex issue, and should not be dismissed as "not making any sense" or the government wanting to screw citizens living abroad over. As I have already stated, it is clear that the purpose behind the legislation is to prevent unreported income from being stored in foreign bank accounts.

Like with many complex issues, I think the current solution is imperfect and could be improved. Stating that it is stupid is not constructive.

Re: Why I gave up my US passport

#76

Post by LekkoscPiwa »

bowyakka wrote: post #45
LekkoscPiwa wrote: post #6

Some of the stuff the people in the article write is just plain stupid. If I could get US citizenship for my newly born daughter (born in Poland) after being in the US total just 5 years, why she couldn't get it done, is beyond me. People who have lived in EU complaining about US burocracy and pointing it as a reason for giving up on an US citizenship are beyond me too. US taxation system is a walk in a park compared…

What part of the US tax system is easy compared to the EU, seriously because I come from the UK and being in the US is the first time in my life I have had to even file a tax return. The US system seems to guarantee you need an accountant.

Ever heard of Turbo Tax? If I can do it in 2 hours each and every year a day before the deadline being US citizen in Poland, yeah you need a lot of bad faith to have issues.

Re: Why I gave up my US passport

#77

Post by sk5t »

chrsstrm wrote: post #62
NamTaf wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What benefit from paying income taxes, exactly? You're not living there, so you don't benefit from any of the social services that income tax funds. Just about every other country I can think of does not tax citizens abroad who do not earn money on their native soil. What makes you think the US system is right and all the others are wrong?

It's a pretty flimsy metaphor, but just because I go on long trips and stay in hotels, doesn't mean I'm not obligated to pay rent on my apartment back home. My status as tenant is recognized through my contribution of my monthly rent. Without it, I have no standing. My decision to live elsewhere, either in the short term or longer, means I either have to deal with paying double housing or give up my apartment.

It's a very leaky metaphor indeed... do not the millions of US citizens who neither earn income nor owe any tax receive far more benefits than the citizen abroad? Why should the working migrant be forced to foot the bill for a room for other people to inhabit?

Re: Why I gave up my US passport

#78

Post by LekkoscPiwa »

nmridul wrote: post #48
joonix wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, they are the only ones, but does that mean it's morally or logically wrong? Theoretically a government spends a certain amount of money on each individual as they live, become educated, and work in the US. If they decide to leave the US to work abroad, they shouldn't get any tax revenue back from you? They do allow you to deduct taxes paid to your residence country.

Taxing is mainly to pay for the facilities that the Government is providing you currently. That is the reason why vast majority of the countries (99% ?) are taxing based on physical presence. So if you are out of the country for most of the time during the last year, then you don't pay tax.

US is immigration based. 60% of New York City population wasn't even born in the USA. Wouldn't you think that in this circumstance a substantial number of them could avoid taxation by living more than 6 months abroad even though their income would be generated in the US? I'm a dual Polish/US citizen. Easy scenario: remote work in US for $100k+ a year while residing all that time in Poland. That's why they have it. There is no other country in the world that's that rich and is based on immigration, so people would have incentive to game the system. That's why the system is built that way that you have to _declare_ your income even when abroad. If somebody can't do this because of $3k lost, that's just shows for them not for the US.

Re: Why I gave up my US passport

#79

Post by anologwintermut »

bentoner wrote: post #69
jacalata wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US citizens who live abroad for 330 days in a calendar year are exempt: see question 12 at http://www.irs.gov/uac/Questions-and-Answers-on-the-Individu...

That's really harsh. Someone living abroad could easily spend > 35 days/year in the US on business or visiting family.

Not really. The point of the requirement is to subsidize the health care you will get if they find you unconscious, naked in a ditch without ID and can't tell if you are wealthy enough to pay or not.

Absent insurance, that privilege is paid for by the higher prices charged to people unlucky enough to need healthcare.

Now, if you can't get plans that consider the fact that you are only in the US for < 100 days a year, then yes it's harsh.

Re: Why I gave up my US passport

#80

Post by ArchD »

chrsstrm wrote: post #62
NamTaf wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What benefit from paying income taxes, exactly? You're not living there, so you don't benefit from any of the social services that income tax funds. Just about every other country I can think of does not tax citizens abroad who do not earn money on their native soil. What makes you think the US system is right and all the others are wrong?

It's a pretty flimsy metaphor, but just because I go on long trips and stay in hotels, doesn't mean I'm not obligated to pay rent on my apartment back home. My status as tenant is recognized through my contribution of my monthly rent. Without it, I have no standing. My decision to live elsewhere, either in the short term or longer, means I either have to deal with paying double housing or give up my apartment.

Of course it's a flimsy metaphor. How do you make the choice to liken a country to an apartment with a long-term lease instead of a hotel that charges by the day or a club where you pay dues and can suspend your membership and due payment for a while?

If the US were an apartment, it would be a very strange apartment with numerous people entering and exiting it everyday.

Post reply on HN