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Google is defragging Android

arstechnica.com

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Re: Google is defragging Android

#71

Post by corresation »

woah wrote: post #60
corresation wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android is no longer meaningfully open, other than a years old core of basic functions. This is so utterly and complete wrong, and is the sort of ultra-polarized, hysterical comment that does not belong on HN. I suspect that the single and only reason it isn't dim gray is the appeal-to-sympathy "you downvote the truth!" noise that manipulates the weak-willed. Just to be clear, Google has always had closed source, pro…

not an expert in this area, so I won't comment on the accuracy of your claims, but your comment is full of ad hominem vitriol. please keep it civil, whether you agree or not. HN is better than this.

Ad hominem? I am specifically criticizing the comment, so yet another showing of some ignorantly misplaced Latin isn't worthwhile.

Re: Google is defragging Android

#72

Post by engrenage »

pkulak wrote: post #65
engrenage wrote: post #6

Notably, Play services is totally closed. So Google has abandoned the open source part of Android and is now developing the operating system as a completely closed product. Edit: downvotes don't change the truth of the observation. Android is no longer meaningfully open, other than a years old core of basic functions. Just like OSX and Darwin.

Everything in Play Services is application level. Just because Apple bundles a mail app and browser in with their OS doesn't mean that those kinds of things make up an operating system. Any tablet maker in China can still use Android to get a complete mobile operating system for free, without even telling Google they are going to do it. So can Amazon. Can I make a new phone with iOS for free, as long as I don't inclu…

Everything in play services is most certainly not Application level. I presume you didn't read the linked article or the other comments here about the APIs that are migrating there.

Re: Google is defragging Android

#73

Post by e12e »

wpietri wrote: post #23
elteto wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see the problem here. Play is part of Google's ecosystem, not the Android OS platform. I can download Android's source code, compile it and put it in any device I want (provided I have the technical capability to do so of course). In fact, this is what Android distributions like Cyanogenmod do, and they also provide a binary blob with Google's stuff as an option, if you want to install it. I don't see the rea…

The problem isn't Play. It's that people are being bound more tightly to the ecosystem. As a developer, one of the things that was more appealing to me about Android was that Android seemed to be a more level playing field. But this approach tilts things substantially in favor of Google. In particular, this solves fragmentation for Google, and maybe for Google trusted partners, but it doesn't seem to do so for any ot…

I don't see any reason why the play app shouldn't be Free software. So, while I might be a minority, I'd certainly like to see all of it opened up.

I'd much prefer a reality where the play service and app is open, and which upstream source you trust is defined by which certificates you trust, and nothing else. That'd make it trivial to set up trusted sources for a company, for example.

Re: Google is defragging Android

#74

Post by turing »

engrenage wrote: post #6

Notably, Play services is totally closed. So Google has abandoned the open source part of Android and is now developing the operating system as a completely closed product. Edit: downvotes don't change the truth of the observation. Android is no longer meaningfully open, other than a years old core of basic functions. Just like OSX and Darwin.

downvotes don't change the truth of the observation. Android is no longer meaningfully open, other than a years old core of basic functions.

The problem is that your observation isn't true. Here are some of the under-the-hood changes in just the most recent releases of Android:

  -OpenGL ES 3.0
  -Bluetooth low energy/Bluetooth AVRCP
  -restricted profiles
  -VP8 encoder
  -new DRM framework
  -SELinux
  -various other optimizations and APIs
Yes Google is moving some functionality to Play services. Yes it is worth discussing how this may impact the future of Android as an open platform. No, that does not mean that Android is no longer "meaningfully open", especially not in the matter-of-fact way you are presenting it.

Re: Google is defragging Android

#75

Post by RealCasually »

e12e wrote: post #73
wpietri wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem isn't Play. It's that people are being bound more tightly to the ecosystem. As a developer, one of the things that was more appealing to me about Android was that Android seemed to be a more level playing field. But this approach tilts things substantially in favor of Google. In particular, this solves fragmentation for Google, and maybe for Google trusted partners, but it doesn't seem to do so for any ot…

I don't see any reason why the play app shouldn't be Free software. So, while I might be a minority, I'd certainly like to see all of it opened up. I'd much prefer a reality where the play service and app is open, and which upstream source you trust is defined by which certificates you trust, and nothing else. That'd make it trivial to set up trusted sources for a company, for example.

Why should it be free software? What gives you a reason to feel that level of entitlement?

Re: Google is defragging Android

#76

Post by e12e »

"It has its own silent, automatic update mechanism that the user has no control over. In fact, most of the time the user never even knows an update has happened."

Great. So, if it was difficult to trust your phone/tablet/tv before it is now impossible. I'm looking more forward to Ubuntu and FirefoxOS than ever before - I want to be able to control what software runs on my devices!

Re: Google is defragging Android

#77

Post by fleitz »

turing wrote: post #74
engrenage wrote: post #6

Notably, Play services is totally closed. So Google has abandoned the open source part of Android and is now developing the operating system as a completely closed product. Edit: downvotes don't change the truth of the observation. Android is no longer meaningfully open, other than a years old core of basic functions. Just like OSX and Darwin.

downvotes don't change the truth of the observation. Android is no longer meaningfully open, other than a years old core of basic functions. The problem is that your observation isn't true. Here are some of the under-the-hood changes in just the most recent releases of Android: -OpenGL ES 3.0 -Bluetooth low energy/Bluetooth AVRCP -restricted profiles -VP8 encoder -new DRM framework -SELinux -various other optimizatio…

Like most things open source is a continuum of subtle differences rather than a category.

In my opinion the following software is much more open than Android:

Linux, Apache, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, GCC, clang, and generally most open source products developed by the community.

In my opinion the following software is less open than Android: C#, OSX, iOS, and generally most software developed by major corporations.

The real keys are that your Android device is locked down, fixing it voids your warranty, and development does not take place in the open, rather every few months a major patch is released and there is no way for the community to contribute to the project in any meaningful way.

Re: Google is defragging Android

#78

Post by jayd16 »

engrenage wrote: post #72
pkulak wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything in Play Services is application level. Just because Apple bundles a mail app and browser in with their OS doesn't mean that those kinds of things make up an operating system. Any tablet maker in China can still use Android to get a complete mobile operating system for free, without even telling Google they are going to do it. So can Amazon. Can I make a new phone with iOS for free, as long as I don't inclu…

Everything in play services is most certainly not Application level. I presume you didn't read the linked article or the other comments here about the APIs that are migrating there.

Isn't GooglePlayServices by definition app level? My understanding is it runs in app space. Any other developer could accomplish the same thing.

Re: Google is defragging Android

#79

Post by MBCook »

jaegerpicker wrote: post #53
credo wrote: post #40

>>This is how you beat software fragmentation. This does help defragment Android from a Google (developed) app perspective. However, it doesn't do anything for 3rd-party developers. It doesn't do anything for regular consumers who wish to upgrade their 2.3.3 phones or 4.1 phones to the latest version of Android. So Google has a long way to go before they really defragment Android.

What? It absolutely helps 3rd party app developers. Need a new and better video/gps/network/etc.. api? Right now you stuck depending on a new OS Version. if they start tying api's to play store updates, as they have with things like geolocation/gps functions, they worrying which OS and about fragmentation mostly goes away for 3rd party developers of apps.

How is Play going to update the kernel without the OEM's involvement?

Some software improvements and new libraries will be available, and that's a plus for users. But this is still a far distance from REAL OS updates. I'd worry this disincentives OEMs to do real updates.

Re: Google is defragging Android

#80

Post by unabridged »

engrenage wrote: post #6

Notably, Play services is totally closed. So Google has abandoned the open source part of Android and is now developing the operating system as a completely closed product. Edit: downvotes don't change the truth of the observation. Android is no longer meaningfully open, other than a years old core of basic functions. Just like OSX and Darwin.

Sure android was a great step forward from ios, but after using it for a couple years I can't wait for a real linux phone and android to be a distant memory. The reason Google chose to back android instead of porting a real linux distro to mobile is because they wanted a market to sell programs, not an OS that already has 1000s of top quality open source programs already available. Google wanted an OS where you don't even get a file manager so people can be conned into paying for even the simplest features.
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