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Dark Patterns - User Interfaces Designed to Trick People

darkpatterns.org

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Re: Dark Patterns - User Interfaces Designed to Trick People

#71
post #56

Cable providers have been the worst with this in my experience. No matter what you do it takes an ungodly amount of time to cancel service. There was a great Behavioral Economics course on Coursera taught by Dan Ariely that touched on methods like these, as well as subtler ones. I think the slide on Organ Donation was from him. https://class.coursera.org/behavioralecon-001/class

Preface: I really like what the site is showing, the below is more food for thought, and perhaps a wee-bit of direction for those looking to persue it deeper. Also forgive me, as it became time to proof read, it became beer time.

===========

I'm glad someone brought up behavioral economics...

Below I've pasted the abstract for the original paper, organ donor paper [1]:

"The well-documented shortage of donated organs suggests that greater effort should be made to increase the number of individuals who decide to become potential donors. We examine the role of one factor: the no-action default for agreement. We first argue that such decisions are constructed in response to the question, and therefore influenced by the form of the question. We then describe research that shows that presumed consent increases agreement to be a donor, and compare countries with opt-in (explicit consent) and opt-out (presumed consent) defaults. Our analysis shows that opt-in countries have much higher rates of apparent agreement with donation, and a statistically significant higher rate of donations, even with appropriate statistical controls. We close by discussing the costs and benefits associated with both defaults as well as mandated choice"

1.) I think what the website is trying to illustrate, is more specific instances where this is applied for bad (fair critique!). However, I think the abstract above bring up an interesting question:

If the framing of an option(s) is causal [2] to it's propensity to be chosen; can one really be upset that their indifference is manipulated?

I want to talk about the "good" application of this which is (arguably?) donating organs. It saves lives, and as it turns out, is dependent strictly on our indifference [3]. I suppose I'm inviting criticism, but what's wrong with that? The idea of saving a life, by most, is considered noble [4]. Even more so, if it was, indeed, important for us to conciously decide on-- why wouldn't we [5]?

If it said:

"Check the box to not be shot with a shotgun, at a distance of 3 feet, in the face, immediately after you turn this in?"

... after a few incidents, social knowledge would spread of the option to drive awareness. It's cost would be measured, most likely choosing indifference would be greater than. I would like to propose the juxtaposition of awareness, reaction, and marginal cost to us is quite large. The point: one is important for us and one is not, the effort to spread awareness or be aware is greater than the potential(?) gain.

In the case of these businesses framing options for increasing profits, not that I think it's right [6], but is it really that dark? Aren't we essentially indifferent to the costs? Is that reason enough to be upset? Have any of these examples shown a cost which exceeds the cost of cognitively reasoning about it? If they have, and you do not opt-out, is there reason to be upset since the marginal utility of not-opting out is, matter of fact, greater to you, than opting out.

2.) If the examples shown on "Dark Patterns" are evil to you:

learn about behavior economics and to spread the knowledge you gain.

Learn about the roots, not symptoms, because the amount of change/awareness you'll be able to make is greater. Yes, it can be applied poorly, to decieve, but it's also can be applied for good. Being aware will make you less susceptible (not always, that's the gambler's fallacy) to mallace and probably make you insist on it for good (e.g. organ donating).

A great Behavioral Economics paper, that also cites the original organ donor work[1] is "Maps of Bounded Rationality: Psychology for Behavioral Economics" by Daniel Kahneman [7].

I think the exploration, and awareness, of the application of framing (menu) options is great. I just hope it doesn't stop there :)

[1] "Defaults and Donation Decisions" Author(s): Eric J. Johnson and Daniel G. Goldstein Source: http://www8.gsb.columbia.edu/sites/decisionsciences/files/fi...

[2] Yeah I said it, causal. I ain't talkin' no correlations 'ere. It's like a hypothesis but less complete ...it's actually for emphasis not a to say I believe it's a physical law (ex. the speed of light).

[3] Using marginal utility is a way to remove indifference (I think it [indifference] is too hard to meaningfully measure) while maintaining the same conclusion. The marginal utility of filling out a form quickly, is greater than spending time deeply analyzing the cost and benefits of such a choice...

[4] Noble: having or showing fine personal qualities or high moral principles and ideals. Source: Mac OS X Dictionary; definition. 2

[5] I find refuting this, in any sense, to be concerning and disheartening-- that is to suggest that a majority of people are inherently incapable. Should that be the case then I propose we as a species are incapable and prone to deciptive tactics. That would mean you too; you're no snowflake.

[6] I believe it's a symptom.

[7] "Maps of Bounded Rationality: Psychology for Behavioral Economics" Author(s): Daniel Kahneman Source: The American Economic Review, Vol. 93, No. 5 (Dec., 2003), pp. 1449-1475

Re: Dark Patterns - User Interfaces Designed to Trick People

#72

Thanks to the author for including RyanAir's awful booking reservation website. This piece of garbage is filled with traps and puzzles in order to sneak additional costs onto you. God I hate this carrier a well as the world's "cheaper is better" attitude.

You can do cheap properly. Look at WestJet in Canada (also in the States now, I believe): cheap, no frills, and great service with friendly staff. One of their claims to fame is that, when starting out, they lacked the money to pay competitive wages and so had a very generous equity scheme. This resulted, at one point, in over 40% of their staff being millionaires. When you have that kind of stake in the company's reputation and success, the level of give-a-shit rises substantially.

Re: Dark Patterns - User Interfaces Designed to Trick People

#73
post #38

The worst mainstream example of this I know of is PayPal. Their entire business is predicated on steering you away from using your credit or debit card (better for you) to a direct bank withdrawal (better for them). Bank withdrawals carry a risk of overdraft fees, have fewer consumer protections, and lack the rewards programs and other benefits of cards. But they cost less for PayPal. Merchants don't pay any less tho…

> Their entire business is predicated on steering you away from using your credit or debit card (better for you) to a direct bank withdrawal (better for them). You're being hyperbolic, or don't know what predicated means. This defaulting to bank transfers is a relatively recent thing in their history; they've been profitable for more than 10 years without that. Their fees are also sufficient to make a profit on credi…

This defaulting to bank transfers is a relatively recent thing in their history;

I've had a paypal account since before Ebay bought them and they've always used sneaky user interface tricks to push customers into using bank transfers over credit cards. It was the first thing I noticed about them after signing up.

Re: Dark Patterns - User Interfaces Designed to Trick People

#74

Thanks to the author for including RyanAir's awful booking reservation website. This piece of garbage is filled with traps and puzzles in order to sneak additional costs onto you. God I hate this carrier a well as the world's "cheaper is better" attitude.

I've never had to deal with RyanAir, but I have to give them credit for their criticism of all the bullshit with airport security - this what their website actually looked like for at least a day:

http://www.owenkelly.net/763/ryanairs-new-check-in-procedure...

Re: Dark Patterns - User Interfaces Designed to Trick People

#75
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can confirm PayPal are douchebags in this regard. So much so that I couldn't donate to Lavabit because of it.

In hindsight though, this was probably a good thing. You would most likely have been on an NSA database if you had donated to Lavabit.

Politely, I know you think you're helping people by maintaining awareness of the NSA, but a passing mention of Lavabit on a PayPal thread doesn't warrant a a tangent about the NSA and privacy. It seems kind of obsessive.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Re: Dark Patterns - User Interfaces Designed to Trick People

#76
post #43
post #38

The worst mainstream example of this I know of is PayPal. Their entire business is predicated on steering you away from using your credit or debit card (better for you) to a direct bank withdrawal (better for them). Bank withdrawals carry a risk of overdraft fees, have fewer consumer protections, and lack the rewards programs and other benefits of cards. But they cost less for PayPal. Merchants don't pay any less tho…

I can confirm PayPal are douchebags in this regard. So much so that I couldn't donate to Lavabit because of it.

Can you elaborate on this? Why did the practice of preferring bank withdrawals prevent you from just choosing a card...or paying some other way?

Re: Dark Patterns - User Interfaces Designed to Trick People

#77

One of the most Pavlovian I've encountered is in InAppPurchases. A confirm button will be repeated in the same corner of a dialog box 9 out of 10 times, but the 10th time it will be replaced with a single-click purchase. Basically the UI Is set up to purposefully hotswap to confuse the user into accidental purchases. I've also seen purchase buttons placed extremely near edges in order to capture edge gestures and con…

Yep. Single click purchases shouldn't be utilized as much on mobile devices. The state of mobile apps is such that it's already not intensive to get to a checkout page where you buy something; it's not like Amazon where you might jump through 4-5 pages of confirmations and it's useful to seasoned buyers. Apps are so much smaller (comparatively) than entire websites that really you just need to tap a button from the options/main menu and then get to the selection area before payment. There's no address to put it, or shipping details that a "one-tap" could bypass and expediate.

I think whoever first thought, "Let's port one-click purchases to mobile!" either was being disingenuous or was only successful because it was used in an unintended, quasi-fraudulent way.

Re: Dark Patterns - User Interfaces Designed to Trick People

#78
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Their entire business is predicated on steering you away from using your credit or debit card (better for you) to a direct bank withdrawal (better for them). You're being hyperbolic, or don't know what predicated means. This defaulting to bank transfers is a relatively recent thing in their history; they've been profitable for more than 10 years without that. Their fees are also sufficient to make a profit on credi…

This defaulting to bank transfers is a relatively recent thing in their history; I've had a paypal account since before Ebay bought them and they've always used sneaky user interface tricks to push customers into using bank transfers over credit cards. It was the first thing I noticed about them after signing up.

That's right, PayPal has always worked this way. In fact, it's only fairly recently that it let me switch to a credit card without putting up a warning page about all the benefits I'd get by using my checking account instead of a credit card.

Re: Dark Patterns - User Interfaces Designed to Trick People

#79
post #2

Hi, I'm the guy who started darkpatterns.org. It's nice to see it popping up on HN every now and then. We're actually looking for contributors to help edit and update the content. If anyone is interested, drop us a line (contact details on the site). It's intended to be a community project and we'd love to see a lot more faces and names on the about page.

My comments: I'm that guy who uses NoScript/ScriptSafe to disable JS on most sites. Took me several minutes to figure out what combination of hosts I had to enable to play your slideshow.

My suggestion: find a simpler tool to display your slideshow.

Otherwise: a pretty decent collection of horrors.

I'll also note I'm that guy who generally avoids shopping online if at all possible. I'll do a lot of online research, but prefer patronizing local stores if possible, and paying cash. Why? Because:

- You know what you're getting when you buy it.

- When the deal is done the deal is done. No late-hit fees or follow-on solicitations.

- Generally a much easier returns policy, should that be necessary.

Yes, for some items, there's less choice (though you can special order a great deal of stuff), and there are some things I will purchase online (air travel on the rare occasions I feel it utterly necessary to humiliate myself before airport security).

Re: Dark Patterns - User Interfaces Designed to Trick People

#80
post #38

The worst mainstream example of this I know of is PayPal. Their entire business is predicated on steering you away from using your credit or debit card (better for you) to a direct bank withdrawal (better for them). Bank withdrawals carry a risk of overdraft fees, have fewer consumer protections, and lack the rewards programs and other benefits of cards. But they cost less for PayPal. Merchants don't pay any less tho…

If you've subscribed to some service via Paypal, try and find a way to unsubscribe and stop payments from within the Paypal interface.

You may just end up pulling all you hair out before you find a way to do so.

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