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Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

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Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#71

Post by throwawaykf02 »

lukifer wrote: post #69
throwawaykf02 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. As long as people keep using the same online communications to plan inflicting harm on society as society does to exchange pictures of grandkids and recipes, those communications will keep being monitored, and thus we can have no expectation of privacy. Liberties have always been compromised for the sake of security, Benjamin Frankliin quotes notwithstanding. But! Taking these numbers at face value, the low error…

Where does it end? If the surveillance state effectively trumps terror, why not murders, rapes and child porn? If those, then why not embezzlement and tax fraud? If those, then why not speeding tickets and MP3 torrenting? And through it all, who watches the watchers (and who watches the watcher-watchers)? If this is all so effective, why have due process at all? You'll never convince me that any jihadist has the capa…

You went wrong the moment you used the term "surveillance state". Before, we had no numbers, so that phrase might have been justified. But now we do: The declassified court document seems to say there were about a dozen million "transactions" collected over a year. Hundreds of billions of emails are sent everyday. A very small fraction of a percent is snooped on. Is that a "surveillance state"? At what level of watchfulness does a society go from "vigilant" to "surveillance state"? There is no such measure, and the term is bandied about to generate an emotional response.

You'll never be convinced because you are, presumptively, ensconced in the safe, protective shell of a (western?) country that does not experience terrorist attacks on a regular basis. The terrorist threat is real. People die everyday in terror attacks. The "power-mad" government scenario? Lets just say in all this noise I've seen very few instances of actual abuse of power, if any.

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#72

Post by jnbiche »

mentat wrote: post #60
jnbiche wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to be clear, the only thing that Udall and Wyden are actually sworn to is this oath: "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully dis…

They swore other oaths when getting clearances to be sure.

It turns out you're half right. I knew congressmen didn't have to undergo security clearances. But it turns out that starting in the 104th congress (1997-1999), they are required to swear a secrecy oath.

I still think the oath to the constitution is far more important to the integrity of our country, but I was wrong that they swore no other oath.

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#73

Post by amirmc »

gasull wrote: post #25
ihsw wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is all of congress tapped? All the governors? Snowden hinted at this. What the fuck is going on in my country? I'm going to assume the worst, which would be that the NSA is used as a tool of blackmail by nefarious parties whom the NSA relies on. Key House and Senate members put in a good word for the NSA and then they get some "free" information on their opponents, at which point they convince their opponents to "t…

They are blackmailing and targeting anyone that is in the way to their goal of total surveillance. This hasn't gotten enough attention: US targets lie-detector coaches following Edward Snowden affair http://www.scmp.com/news/world/article/1297622/us-targets-li...

Choice quote:

"Nothing like this has been done before," John Schwartz, a US Customs and Border Protection official, said of the legal approach. "Most certainly our nation's security will be enhanced. There are a lot of bad people out there. This will help us remove some of those pests from society."

Regardless of how anyone may feel about 'lie-detector' tests, this is chilling.

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#74

Post by mentat »

jnbiche wrote: post #72
mentat wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They swore other oaths when getting clearances to be sure.

It turns out you're half right. I knew congressmen didn't have to undergo security clearances. But it turns out that starting in the 104th congress (1997-1999), they are required to swear a secrecy oath. I still think the oath to the constitution is far more important to the integrity of our country, but I was wrong that they swore no other oath.

Funny that I still got down voted for disagreeing. Ah, the new HN.

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#75

Post by snowwrestler »

bengrunfeld wrote: post #33
snowwrestler wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this is the crux of the matter. Technology today allows intrusions into our privacy that do not harm our ability to speak publicly. In the 1700s, the only way for the government to read your papers was to take them away from you--harming your use of them. Today they can extract the entire contents without disturbing your use at all. Reading and restriction have been separated. It's a new situation and there will…

I completely disagree. Please see my response below, and failing that, search Wikipedia for "Freedom of Speech", and then search the page (Cmd + F) for "privacy".

We don't disagree, I think you are reacting to my post without actually reading it.

I'm not advocating that what's happening is ok. I'm talking about the physical act of speech, not the cultural or psychological aspects. I agree with you on those.

It's just that in the 1700s, if you were working on a newsletter or pamphlet (like, say, a Federalist Paper), your draft would be on paper in your home. If the government wanted to read it, they had to come to your home and seize it, in which case you don't have it anymore. Your speech is directly prevented in a physical way.

Today, your draft might be stored a server that is owned and operated by a 3rd party. The government does not need to come to your home to read it. In fact you would have no clue that it was accessed at all. You could go on with your life and publish as though the access never happened.

Am I saying this is OK or right? No. It just is.

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#76

Post by lukifer »

throwawaykf02 wrote: post #71
lukifer wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where does it end? If the surveillance state effectively trumps terror, why not murders, rapes and child porn? If those, then why not embezzlement and tax fraud? If those, then why not speeding tickets and MP3 torrenting? And through it all, who watches the watchers (and who watches the watcher-watchers)? If this is all so effective, why have due process at all? You'll never convince me that any jihadist has the capa…

You went wrong the moment you used the term "surveillance state". Before, we had no numbers, so that phrase might have been justified. But now we do: The declassified court document seems to say there were about a dozen million "transactions" collected over a year. Hundreds of billions of emails are sent everyday . A very small fraction of a percent is snooped on. Is that a "surveillance state"? At what level of watc…

People die every day in car accidents too. Safety is mostly an illusion. (I'll admit that not having children probably makes my sanguine attitude easier.)

I don't care what the percentage is. The right to snoop arbitrarily is too much power, and if we accept it will be abused, it will get worse, and it will be very hard to undo. Safety is not worth the permanent eradication of human dignity and liberty. I'd rather die than live like a chickenshit.

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#77

Post by throwawaykf02 »

lukifer wrote: post #76
throwawaykf02 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You went wrong the moment you used the term "surveillance state". Before, we had no numbers, so that phrase might have been justified. But now we do: The declassified court document seems to say there were about a dozen million "transactions" collected over a year. Hundreds of billions of emails are sent everyday . A very small fraction of a percent is snooped on. Is that a "surveillance state"? At what level of watc…

People die every day in car accidents too. Safety is mostly an illusion. (I'll admit that not having children probably makes my sanguine attitude easier.) I don't care what the percentage is. The right to snoop arbitrarily is too much power, and if we accept it will be abused, it will get worse, and it will be very hard to undo. Safety is not worth the permanent eradication of human dignity and liberty. I'd rather di…

"People die everyday in car accidents and safety is an illusion, so let's stop wearing seatbelts. Safety is not worth the indignity of driving around trussed up like a turkey."

BTW, the government and the courts agree that warrantless snooping is dangerous, which is why there are checks and balances in place. The recent leaks raised doubts that those were not effective. But if the numbers in the declassified documents are accurate, it's nowhere nearly as bad as people here are imagining.

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#78

Post by TruthElixirX »

Amadou wrote: post #58
TruthElixirX wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was never your country. You are just now filling the full oppression that minorities have been suffering since this country's inception. In the 80's it wasn't the country for gays. In the 50's it wasn't the country for non-whites. In the 1900's it wasn't the country for women. Before the 1900's it was only old white land owners. The ruling class has just expanded to not be exclusively old white men. And the oppres…

You are just now filling the full oppression that minorities have been suffering since this country's inception. We aren't even close to that. So far the NSA hasn't done anything like beat someone and leave them to die in the road. I'm totally on board with the idea that pervasive surveillance smothers society if for no other reason than its presence causes self-censorship like the groklaw situation. But until it com…

I did not confine the oppressors to just the NSA. I said the ruling class.

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#79

Post by lukifer »

throwawaykf02 wrote: post #77
lukifer wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People die every day in car accidents too. Safety is mostly an illusion. (I'll admit that not having children probably makes my sanguine attitude easier.) I don't care what the percentage is. The right to snoop arbitrarily is too much power, and if we accept it will be abused, it will get worse, and it will be very hard to undo. Safety is not worth the permanent eradication of human dignity and liberty. I'd rather di…

"People die everyday in car accidents and safety is an illusion, so let's stop wearing seatbelts. Safety is not worth the indignity of driving around trussed up like a turkey." BTW, the government and the courts agree that warrantless snooping is dangerous, which is why there are checks and balances in place. The recent leaks raised doubts that those were not effective. But if the numbers in the declassified document…

But we can't really know, can we? The trust is completely eroded. Fool me once...

Put simply, databases change the equation. Never in human history has it been possible to store and mine such a massive quantity of data in perpetuity. If the infrastructure exists to capture and process that much data, included via algorithm rather than by human, that represents such a radical shift in power that its abuse is inevitable, regardless of whatever restraints may or may not exist today. What happens if the next Snowden is a profiteer? What happens if China finds a backdoor, and can suddenly tap all data on every American citizen.

Capturing and storing all data is really really fucking dangerous, no matter who's doing it or why. (I'm not thrilled about Google or Facebook either, but at least it's voluntary, and they never throw anyone into a cage.)

> People die everyday in car accidents and safety is an illusion, so let's stop wearing seatbelts.

I think a better analogy would be a seatbelt that you can't take off, "for your own good". And if you're trapped by your seatbelt in a crashed and burning car, well, too bad, we meant well!

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