Live data from Hacker News

Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

pachamama.org

71–80 of 193 posts

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#71
post #46

My dad's condo [edit: condo complex] in Sweden has 10+ different trash cans. You divide your trash into individuals cans for batteries, bulbs, cardboard, paper, compostables, and so forth. I don't know but I assume that part of the reason that Swedes are able to deal effectively with the trash is that they sort it properly at the source, so that they more easily can process it. When I read stuff like this it honestly…

It's inefficient to do 10+ cans per person. It is more efficient to sort it at the garbage transfer station the way Canadians do. Most places have 3 cans. General, glass/plastic/cardboard, and biodegradable. Also, SF is considered "progressive" for many of its completely unsustainable policies, like housing controls, which ultimately lead to further economic inefficiency. A truly progressive society is more like Toro…

Sweden has cut services and taxes more than any other western country in the past decade.

They still have some of the highest taxes in the world and an extensive welfare state.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#72
post #12

For a different perspective I found this older article which ponders the economic impact of forcing 9 million people to spend time and energy sorting their trash: http://mises.org/daily/2855

Last I checked, no one is "forced" to do anything. They are free to let the trash pile up in their homes, so long as they keep it from impacting their neighbors. Instead, the service of trash disposal is being offered with restrictions.

And if you wish to engage a more sane trash disposal service?

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's inefficient to do 10+ cans per person. It is more efficient to sort it at the garbage transfer station the way Canadians do. Most places have 3 cans. General, glass/plastic/cardboard, and biodegradable. Also, SF is considered "progressive" for many of its completely unsustainable policies, like housing controls, which ultimately lead to further economic inefficiency. A truly progressive society is more like Toro…

> It's inefficient to do 10+ cans per person. I think he means that there are 10 cans for the entire condo complex. Also, forcing individual _taxpayers_ to sort trash really keeps environmentalism in the forefront of voters' minds, which I imagine makes it much easier to keep environment-friendly legislation and public works projects going. Consider the opposite extreme, having a single bin that absolutely everything…

How does 10+ cans for a condo complex work? 10+ different chutes? Do you have to walk your trash down to the trashcans yourself?

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#74
post #12

For a different perspective I found this older article which ponders the economic impact of forcing 9 million people to spend time and energy sorting their trash: http://mises.org/daily/2855

Thank you! I really think the fact that Sweden is 30 time smaller than the US is a significant aspect of the problem, which ought to be highlighted a bit more when doing a comparison between these two countries on their energy models. How hard would it be for the US to implement such solution (assuming the cost would not be as prohibitive as it is compared with nuclear energy), first in a large city like NY (or LA) a…

Trash sorting is an embarrassingly parallel problem.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#75
post #55
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the point he makes is that the same is true for the other statistics. It'd probably be cheaper environmentally for a garbage truck to pick up all your garbage for instance, rather than each person traveling to the recycling center themselves.

I've lived in a couple of villages/towns/cities in Sweden, and the garbage trucks do pick up the sorted household garbage. Recycling centers are for stuff like old furniture, used engine oil, etc. I guess you could implement a system for that too. Inform the city when you have less common items to throw away and when the quota for your neighborhood is full, a truck gets dispatched to pick it up. Would require some ex…

Here in Portugal - or at least, in many municipalities - you can call up the city and arrange for them to pick it up at a certain day, for free (yes, it's paid by taxes, yada yada).

They take furniture, appliances and green waste (from gardens and such).

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's inefficient to do 10+ cans per person. It is more efficient to sort it at the garbage transfer station the way Canadians do. Most places have 3 cans. General, glass/plastic/cardboard, and biodegradable. Also, SF is considered "progressive" for many of its completely unsustainable policies, like housing controls, which ultimately lead to further economic inefficiency. A truly progressive society is more like Toro…

> It's inefficient to do 10+ cans per person. I think he means that there are 10 cans for the entire condo complex. Also, forcing individual _taxpayers_ to sort trash really keeps environmentalism in the forefront of voters' minds, which I imagine makes it much easier to keep environment-friendly legislation and public works projects going. Consider the opposite extreme, having a single bin that absolutely everything…

> Also, forcing individual _taxpayers_ to sort trash really keeps environmentalism in the forefront of voters' minds, which I imagine makes it much easier to keep environment-friendly legislation and public works projects going.

Indeed. I always get a bit surprised when I see visiting people throwing cans out of the car window, or a plastic wrapper while walking down the street. I guess its a wonder that they only regard the street as a garbage can and not as a toilet.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#77
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in a Swedish city, and I recently visited the local "garbage burning" power plant. It's not like the trash is just burned and the fumes released into the atmosphere, they pass through like 10-15 different types of filters removing and recycling different particles. The fumes that finally are released supposedly have a very negligible environmental impact. I'd link you some sources, but I got this information f…

Yes, emission from dioxin has been reduced by 99% since the 1980s beacuse of better filtering and much higher temperatures when burning the garbage. From Naturvårdsverket (Swedish Environmental Protection Agency) In Swedish http://www.naturvardsverket.se/Stod-i-miljoarbetet/Vaglednin... Google translate http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&js=n&prev=...

  much higher temperatures
How's the nitrogen oxide levels, then?

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#78
This story illustrates both the upsides and limitations of trash-to-energy programs.

On the positive side: many sources will pay you to take their trash from them. There's nothing like free energy.

On the negative side:

- Sweden's exhaustion of its own sources of trash show that the concept is inherently limited, even in an abundant consumption economy. That is, one which is producing ample waste streams. As the article notes: "the fastidious population of Northern Europe produces only about 150 million tons of waste a year, he said, far too little to supply incinerating plants that can handle more than 700 million tons." That's a kind way of saying that Sweden's overbuilt its trash-to-electric capacity by 467%.

- Some trash is more equal than others. Countries such as Switzerland and Germany which offer highly segregated waste streams find themselves with many takers. Italy, who is stereotypically ... less organized, not so much. Again, noted in the article.

- There are issues with contaminants, which require monitoring of the input waste stream, the combustion process, and emissions controls.

- Ultimately there's the question of how much trash will exist in a world with a leaner energy profile. In which case it's likely we'll find that there's a very high excess of trash-to-energy infrastructure, though much of it might be applied to other feedstocks, including biomass. Though this also has its limits:

http://globalecology.stanford.edu/DGE/Dukes/Dukes_ClimChange...

Putting this in an American context (likely familiar to most readers):

Americans produce 230 million tons of waste stream, about 4.3 - 4.6 pounds per person per day.

http://www.learner.org/interactives/garbage/solidwaste.html

http://www.epa.gov/osw/basic-solid.htm

In a best-case scenario, this would be pure biomass. I'll assume the same energy potential as carbohydrate (oil-based products will have roughly double this, glass, metal, and inorganic solids less), at 4 calories/gram, or roughly 971 GWh of electrical energy. That's an appreciable amount of energy, but given that annual electrical production is 4.1 tera watt-hours, my hypothetical puts waste-stream energy production at less than 1/4 of electrical energy usage, or roughly 6% of total energy usage. And that's before considering the energy requirements of collecting and processing the wastestream itself, or the effects on waste production in a reduced-energy environment.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#79
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's inefficient to do 10+ cans per person. I think he means that there are 10 cans for the entire condo complex. Also, forcing individual _taxpayers_ to sort trash really keeps environmentalism in the forefront of voters' minds, which I imagine makes it much easier to keep environment-friendly legislation and public works projects going. Consider the opposite extreme, having a single bin that absolutely everything…

It's counterintuive to me that forcing people to sort their trash will lead to a fondness for recycling. Did the draft engender a fondness for the Vietnam war? A different approach would be to charge people for trash pickup. If the cost for sorted trash removal is enough of a savings, then people will do it.

Sorting your garbage rarely leads to a sucking chest wound.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#80
post #59

Do they sequester the massive amounts of CO2 that trash burning generates? If not, sinking that carbon into the ground may be a better idea. Or not: landfills produce methane and other natural gases which are more potent than carbon dioxide if they're not captured and reused. Has anyone done the math?

Most of a typical waste stream consists of current/recent biomass -- a surprising amount by both volume and weight is paper and paper products.

Plastics and such do represent fossilized carbon (usually) but are a smaller percentage overall.

So the net carbon impact is much lower than burning fossil fuels. And yes, the methane reduction helps, though methane does have a pretty short (about a decade) residency in the atmosphere as I understand.

Post reply on HN