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How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Tenure-track-faculty Life

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Re: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Tenure-track-faculty Life

#71

Post by dkrich »

kaitai wrote: post #50
dkrich wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not suggesting that there isn't merit to what she says, I'm just saying that it came off to me as an article explaining "how I learned to bide my time in this place for 7 years and eschew the typical advice aimed for those who are content to struggle towards tenure." I've spent a lot of time in academia myself. I was a TA in computer science and have taught undergrads so I was exposed to the political battles and…

I think you're totally misinterpreting this. I know a lot of folks who have spent every hour of every day for oh about four years thinking "Tenure! Tenure! Tenure! Tenure!" I say four years because around that point there's a breakdown in the chair's office or in class or during some long night, and then there's therapy, and bitterness, and wailing and gnashing of teeth. If you focus on the moment instead of "the fut…

You think that struggling for tenure makes people better teachers and better people;

No, this is the opposite of what I'm saying. I DON'T think it makes them better teachers. I think focusing on teaching makes people better teachers. I understand the realities of working at a large university where research is a major focus- again, I've worked in such an environment as an instructor myself. But let's not forget why universities exist in the first place. If you want to focus on research and getting grants and publications, that's great, but I believe you should at least have some interest in teaching. I'm not sure how effective a teacher you can be if you go into work every day reminding yourself that you only have to work there for a set period of time.

Re: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Tenure-track-faculty Life

#72

Post by kaitai »

dkrich wrote: post #71
kaitai wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're totally misinterpreting this. I know a lot of folks who have spent every hour of every day for oh about four years thinking "Tenure! Tenure! Tenure! Tenure!" I say four years because around that point there's a breakdown in the chair's office or in class or during some long night, and then there's therapy, and bitterness, and wailing and gnashing of teeth. If you focus on the moment instead of "the fut…

You think that struggling for tenure makes people better teachers and better people; No, this is the opposite of what I'm saying. I DON'T think it makes them better teachers. I think focusing on teaching makes people better teachers. I understand the realities of working at a large university where research is a major focus- again, I've worked in such an environment as an instructor myself. But let's not forget why u…

The prof in the article is not reminding herself that she only has to work there for a set period of time -- that's your misunderstanding. She's reminding herself that for seven years she gets to do research, teach, and work with awesome people, and after that, if she fails to get tenure, she will not have wasted her time. She won't be an abject failure. Do you really think she's counting down the clock to leaving after seven years?! Why do that?

I agree with you to some extent about the interest in teaching, but be really honest: that's not what we're paying for. State support for education keeps going down, down, down, and government funders are the only funders who really give a crap about education of the students. They're not paying up anymore so that's not a priority, and people who prioritize teaching over research are out of a job. The same attitude is sneaking down to lower-ranked schools as well as they fight for revenue.

I love teaching and get good evaluations. It really means very little in the job market or retaining a tenure-track position. I'm glad you think that a "focus on research and getting grants and publications" is "great" because that is what you are evaluated on: if you can't do that then teaching is irrelevant.

Re: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Tenure-track-faculty Life

#73

Post by seanmcdirmid »

dnautics wrote: post #69
spartango wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're absolutely right, it is possible and even important to structure your experiments in such a way that they don't dominate your life. It's something that I've learned to do pretty effectively (and my chosen discipline makes it easier). I think there are certainly organizational things that can be done to facilitate more reasonable working hours, and I've seen this done well in industrial settings. From pipelined…

I think the reason why it's not easy is because the academic selection process does not select for good managers.

Biology could also be a very competitive field that seems to have devolved into basically a rat race. How do you compete with your equally capable peer when they work 80 hours a week and you work 40? Yes, its not sustainable, but maybe that's where we are right now (disclaimer, I don't work in Biology, but have friends that do).

Re: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Tenure-track-faculty Life

#74

Post by robryan »

mjn wrote: post #43
moocowduckquack wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about all the non-tenured professors who teach? Are you honestly accusing those who are not chasing tenure of not caring about teaching?

In the U.S. at least, you don't usually have a choice to opt-out of chasing tenure if you want to continue teaching. Barring some unusual situations, there are either non-tenure-track fixed-length jobs, like a two-year visiting professorship; or tenure-track jobs where you have six to seven years to get tenure in order to stay. Non-tenure-track but permanent positions are quite rare, and in a tenure-track position yo…

Is getting rid of people with over a decade of academic experience because try didn't achieve enough research results or even just didn't impress those recommending them enough really optimal?

Needs to be something like a teaching track, where teaching then becomes the main focus. Maybe still participate in the research going on but not drive it.

Re: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Tenure-track-faculty Life

#75

Post by scott_s »

RogerL wrote: post #61
mathattack wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would seem like anyone worth their salt in computer science could get a corporate job after 7 years at any school, especially Harvard. It seems like the concept of having a failed career is much less than if the Phd was in Philosophy.

I honestly don't know what the job market is like for a CS PhD, so I can't rebut this statement. On the other hand, we interview a lot of PhD.s, and by and large they have little clue about how to provide value. They want to sketch out ideas in Matlab, and throw it over the wall to a bunch of programmers (which in the academic world are postdocs and grad students) to deal with the "implementation details". Many can't…

That's not the case where I work.

Re: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Tenure-track-faculty Life

#76

Post by dnautics »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #73
dnautics wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the reason why it's not easy is because the academic selection process does not select for good managers.

Biology could also be a very competitive field that seems to have devolved into basically a rat race. How do you compete with your equally capable peer when they work 80 hours a week and you work 40? Yes, its not sustainable, but maybe that's where we are right now (disclaimer, I don't work in Biology, but have friends that do).

pick your projects smarter. Most people doing 80 hour weeks are not doing projects that are turning up publishable results. I was there.

Re: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Tenure-track-faculty Life

#77

Post by BruceIV »

jimmahoney wrote: post #42
jamesaguilar wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People optimize for the metrics they are set. To the degree teaching is rewarded, they will focus on teaching. I know a number of PhDs with aspirations of tenure. Not one has said they went into it to teach.

You may be looking for us in the wrong places. I'm an MIT Physics PhD who aimed at teaching from early on. I agree that we're in the minority, but folks like us aren't typically looking for jobs at R1 universities but instead at small schools where teaching is actually valued. Unless you're part of that culture, we may not be the PhDs that you know. I have a number of PhD friends like me, teaching at small liberal ar…

I'm glad to hear this is a thing. I'm a first-year CS PhD student, and my end goal is to get a tenured position at a small school where they care more about my teaching than research skills; I want to teach, but I get paid about as well as a TA as many contract instructors, and I also want a family-supporting wage for my work.

Re: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Tenure-track-faculty Life

#78

Post by mjn »

robryan wrote: post #74
mjn wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the U.S. at least, you don't usually have a choice to opt-out of chasing tenure if you want to continue teaching. Barring some unusual situations, there are either non-tenure-track fixed-length jobs, like a two-year visiting professorship; or tenure-track jobs where you have six to seven years to get tenure in order to stay. Non-tenure-track but permanent positions are quite rare, and in a tenure-track position yo…

Is getting rid of people with over a decade of academic experience because try didn't achieve enough research results or even just didn't impress those recommending them enough really optimal? Needs to be something like a teaching track, where teaching then becomes the main focus. Maybe still participate in the research going on but not drive it.

> Needs to be something like a teaching track

CMU is unusual in being a top-tier school with that arrangement. They actually have three tracks of professors. There's still a "regular" professor with the usual research/teaching mix. Then there is a "teaching" professor, which is also a tenure-track/tenured position, but judged mainly on teaching with research secondary; they are not expected to bring in as many grants or publish as many papers, but teach more courses per semester and are judged more strongly on their teaching quality. And finally there's a "research" professor, which deviates from regular professor in the other direction: they're judged mainly on research, with a lower teaching load, but a higher expectation for grants and publication output.

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