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The IIT Entrance Exam

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71–80 of 96 posts

Re: The IIT Entrance Exam

#71

Let's say that someone sat for the JEE and ranked quite poorly. Who would know this person's actual ranking? Presumably, given the existence of the secret code for checking one's score, not all rankings are made public. Does the test taker himself even know below a certain level of mediocrity? I ask these questions because they seem relevant in understanding the motivations of many taking the exam. Does it reflect po…

JEE rankings are public knowledge, in the sense that unranked == failure. (You don't get a rank if you don't get one of the top 10,000 spots). If you do get a rank, and choose to hide it, it can be pretty easily inferred by what you are studying (CS at IIT Bombay == top 100 or lower. Mechanical at Guwahati == over 1000).

It is definitely a source of pride/honor, and so NOT taking the JEE is definitely seen as somewhat shameful. For example, I grew up in India, and went to the US to study at Williams College. My parents were a little sad about me not writing the JEE, and it was seen as somewhat of a cop out. (I decided at the end of 10th grade that I was going out of the country for college so I didn't write it.)

Re: The IIT Entrance Exam

#72

If these numbers are true, I think it points to an academic rip off far larger than the US student loan problem. If the coaching industry is $3.4B annually, and there are only 10,000 slots at the IITs, that's $340,000 per spot. It effectively costs more to attend the nominally state-funded IIT than an Ivy League school. Of course, most of that cost is not paid by those who get in. If we assume that every one of those…

This is a great observation! While I cannot testify for the numbers quoted in the article, which are suspect as other comments have noted, I'll share my understanding from about 15 years back when I was one of those students. Note that I barely have any data in support of this.

Many of the students who are able to make it through the IIT-JEE examinations actually do not have to spend as much on the coaching. There are people who are in the top 2% in terms of their brains, irrespective of the exam, which have a high likelihood of being in the top 2% in the examinations too. They of course still have to work hard (1) to acquire the needed knowledge, and (2) to gain speed which is also critical via practice.

There would be people in the first 2% who do not fall in the second 2% and vice versa. All the students on the boundary need to work hard to boost their chances as much as they can. But then there are top 1% (number is made up), for whom chances of slipping outside of 2% would be relatively smaller. Reality gets more complex of course since it is not just one threshold "in-or-out", but also about being able to choose the field of one's interest after getting in.

A whole next class of people are those who believe in themselves a bit more than their real capabilities, because they do not know it just yet. These are the ones I believe who end up paying the most. They would gradually see that there are falling through the cracks while still having the desire to get in. A friend of mine took a bold step, surprising everybody around, by backing out on a timely basis.

Finally there are people who would be interested in getting in, but know they do not stand a chance with IIT-JEE. These better save both time and money and focus on something else, that may include other colleges or other fields of study.

Given the reputation of the college, there are coaching institutes which downright abuse the situation. I have heard of famous coaching centers promising money-back guarantees of making it through, which have their own entrance examination to select students that already have a very high chance of getting through! I have also heard of similarly reputed centers who would secretly promise a country-wide rank in the top 10 to as many as 50 students (!), again with a money back guarantee.

Serving as a single data-point would be my own case. I did not go to the IIT but to another reputed engineering college [1], but yet the idea is valid. My total expense for the coaching was about $150 [2], and my four years of undergrad, being subsidized by the government, was about $100 + books [3]. Yes, this is all four years of college, and this applied to ALL students in my college. Yet, some of my own cousins paid $5,000 to go to a local college of no reputation for a nominally similar degree that ultimately did not get them anywhere.

To summarize, the distribution of spending amongst prospective students is somewhat more involved, probably hurting those people the most whose idea of self-worth is not commensurate with reality.

[1] That's a separate story in itself.

[2] None of the numbers here are inflation-adjusted to today from ~15 years back.

[3] Books too were generally cheaper Indian editions, so not as costly.

Re: The IIT Entrance Exam

#73
Nice article. But there are bigger questions to be answered,

1. Did the person who made it in the top 4000 of the JEE actually want to pursue engineering at all ? I have numerous friends in IITs who join the bandwagon for nothing but the brand. They are clear in their minds to pursue a MBA right after their undergrad (IIT+IIM makes parents, family, girls droool). Then there are people who get into it because of family pressure. Its not a very healthy environment at home for two years at any engineering aspirant's home. Trust me.

2. What about those people who didn't get in ? That feeling of not getting into an IIT can be heart-breaking. Those two years of getting up early and sleeping late, numerous hours spent on mind-numbing problems. Missing family functions and gathering for the sake of your coaching exams. That peer pressure of making it into the next FIITJEE All-India list. Everything in vain ? We live a very black and white life in India. You are either an engineer from an IIT or you are from any-other-college. What about the person who didn't get in ? Does this mean that he just isn't good enough ? Wait, let me re-emphasis does a 6 hour test get to decide that i am good enough for my dream ? This is unfair. One exam cannot definitely be the make it or break it. Anyone can have a bad day.

3. Boards or JEE ? For people who may not be aware, the other exam results which are 'supposed' to be critical in your making it big in life are the class 12th boards. Deciding in classes 11-12th on what to study for is a major dilemma since the level of the courses are somewhat different. It isn't easy going into this thing. The horrendous pattern change in 2013 actually shows how the education ministry is actually using kids for experiments of their own.

All said and done. The JEE does a great job bringing like minds together and IITs automatically becomes the hub of the brightest minds the country has to offer. Delighted to see this on HN.

Re: The IIT Entrance Exam

#74
post #60

I don't know fuck-all about chemistry or physics (I dropped out of the 10th grade), but could someone confirm for me that the correct answer to that multiple choice aluminum-hit-with-an-alpha-particle question about 20% in to the article is (a)?

Yes

Re: The IIT Entrance Exam

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem I see is not to do with the education but the whole "I went to an IIT" leg-up that people get (Like ivy-leagers). Just seems extremely unfair that the social outcome for getting into an IIT is so different for people of almost identical intellectual capability.

Given today's scenario the quality of engineers is dipping.So does the gap and thus even a decently meritorious engineer looks much better than the rest of the crowd.An old study http://careers.learnhub.com/news/544-90-percent-graduates-an... shows how poor the rest of the colleges are.That said the socioeconomic gap keeps widening and thus opinions.Opinions are hard to break lest someone disprove.Vast majority of in…

I'm finding it hard to decipher the point you're trying to make other than the fact that you're dissatisfied with... uhh... things in India. No argument there. I am too.

The discussion at hand was about the small set of people who perhaps have the capability to get into IIT's but for various reasons don't manage to get in the top 2% in that particular test. I asserted that such people end up in other decent colleges (and there are plenty of good ones outside of the IIT system and they still form only a fraction of the sum total of Engineering education in India) and generally tend to end up in good to great careers. Any opinions on that discussion ?

Re: The IIT Entrance Exam

#76

From the article: "Only two percent of students will be rewarded for their hard work. In 2012, Harvard accepted 5.9% of applicants. Top engineering schools MIT and Stanford had acceptance rates of 8.9% and 6.63%. The acceptance rate at the IITs, as represented by the pass rate in the JEE, was 2%. Every year, when the results are announced and the media swarms the accepted students, 490,000 students receive disappoint…

>The key, of course, is that many American students self-select out of applying to Harvard, and indeed don't self-select to submit an application to any "prestige" university.

Till 2012, AIEEE was the other most important entrance exam in India and it was the basis for admission to all national colleges other than IIT. ~1,100,000 students applied for it compared to ~500,000 who applied for IIT

Source: http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-04-28/entra...

Re: The IIT Entrance Exam

#77

If these numbers are true, I think it points to an academic rip off far larger than the US student loan problem. If the coaching industry is $3.4B annually, and there are only 10,000 slots at the IITs, that's $340,000 per spot. It effectively costs more to attend the nominally state-funded IIT than an Ivy League school. Of course, most of that cost is not paid by those who get in. If we assume that every one of those…

I was a part of this coaching industry as a student, it is almost inevitable if you are applying for IIT. For a two year period, I shelled out approximately Rs400,000. That is around 9000 USD at the then exchange rate of around 45 INR to a US Dollar. This amount includes coaching, hostel charge, food, books, everything.

EDIT: And this is on the higher end of the spectrum. I had the privilege of going to one of the best IIT coaching institute.

Re: The IIT Entrance Exam

#78
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clearly these men are all very capable but would they have been able to have the same impact had they stayed in India? Given that they all did post-graduate study in the US and currently live in the US and work for an American company, I think their accomplishments say less about the quality of IIT graduates and more about the fact that a huge amount of human potential is being wasted in India.

>huge amount of human potential is being wasted in India. Just a counterpoint : IITs are state funded, i.e most of the student fees are paid for by the government. Once they complete their education, do they not have a duty to give back to the people ? Remember, brain drain is a serious problem for countries like India.

Though my own taxes help fund the IITs, and I never was hard-working enough to get through the JEE, I'm happy that we have the IITs setting at least some kind of an example for the rest of India. I am disappointed by the idiots filling teaching positions in most other colleges.

> do they not have a duty to give back to the people ?

I hate this attitude, not just in India, but anywhere in the world. Like Kennedy's "ask not what your country has done for you...". To start with, their own parents paid taxes to support the IITs too. Do we have a way of making a balance sheet for how my taxes were utilized? How much have I lost to supporting corruption? How much have I lost to supporting undeserving candidates who got in through reservation?

In case of IITs, you are, of course, neglecting all the private funding it gets.

> brain drain is a serious problem for countries like India.

Many Indians who have left have gone on to accomplish great things. Do you think they would have accomplished even 1% of that, had they stayed in India? Brain drain is not India's problem; it is an avenue for opportunity for many Indians. India's problem is corruption and unfettered democracy.

Re: The IIT Entrance Exam

#79
> The Indian Institutes of Technology (IITs) are a system of technical universities in India comparable in prestige and rigor to the Massachusetts Institute of Technology or the California Institute of Technology.

Far from it. IITs are not even in the top 20 in Asia[1].

[1] http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/asian-uni...

Re: The IIT Entrance Exam

#80
post #73

Nice article. But there are bigger questions to be answered, 1. Did the person who made it in the top 4000 of the JEE actually want to pursue engineering at all ? I have numerous friends in IITs who join the bandwagon for nothing but the brand. They are clear in their minds to pursue a MBA right after their undergrad (IIT+IIM makes parents, family, girls droool). Then there are people who get into it because of famil…

I have seen Indian non-IITians who are way better than their IIT counterparts at similar tasks. I also feel that good non-IITians are easier to work with and get the job done because they don't come with the baggage of some sort of entitlement.

But having said that, I do observe that an undergrad degree from an IIT serves as a reasonably reliable indicator of Engineering strength.

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