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The Decline and Fall of the English Major

nytimes.com

71–80 of 160 posts

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#71
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A Philistine is an anti-intellectual or a non-intellectual -- a person with a materialistic frame of mind, lacking the education, intelligence, or will to focus on ideas rather than things. To suggest that a Philistine is a person who is ignorant strictly of "philosophy, art, history, or discourse" is to ignore that, when the term came about, those subjects were a huge part of every curriculum. We've moved on since t…

No, it doesn't just mean anti-intellectual. It's specifically about culture, and has always included the inability to appreciate (or hostility toward) the values conveyed by art and literature. You don't get to change what words mean, and as someone who just accused me of unduly criticizing others, you might want to avoid personal insults for a spell.

Oh, and what was it that you consider a personal insult? I'm not seeing it.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#72
post #32
post #20

I agree. But it's ironic that the author never argues her case with clear writing. She asserts that "clear thinking, clear writing and a lifelong engagement with literature" is extremely extremely valuable. She asserts this as a fundamental "truth." She probably doesn't even realize she needs to explain why because it actually is considered a "truth" among English majors. That's too bad. Obviously it's not considered…

I think the decision to focus on writing was very specific. She is trying to convince people that studying the humanities can/does create a very real skill, an argument that drives a lot of STEM advocates. Personally, I see the value of humanities as how we (a society) got here and why. I think it's important, but I don't think I will have the opportunity to use this knowledge. I do not know all the author's thoughts…

She never makes a clear, logical case for writing.

But forget about writing in particular. She never makes a clear case for the humanities at all. She just says they're really really important.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#73
post #58
post #35

The first paragraph would be improved by the economic reality that dare not speak its name: adjunct . Most people who pursue the PhD in English will fail to join the one profession which actually needs English PhDs (training future English PhDs) and instead, if they want to continue putting to use the last 7+ years of their life dedicated to mastering the reification of privilege and construction of the other as demo…

But your comment already takes for granted that there's no purpose in studying literature other than a career in academia (presumably because education is only about careers to begin with). I'd say the battle for the things worth caring about here was lost long before that assumption became not-even-worth-bothering-to-make-explicit. And sure, the economics are pathetic and the profession is rife with horseshit. The r…

I have the utmost respect for literary traditions, education as a means of self-improvement, and the intangible values of persuing mastery over a broad field of human experience.

And if English degrees had anything to do with that, I'd probably like them, too. That ship has sailed and then was burnt on distant shores, long before I was born.

(I don't think there's a whole lot of daylight between the two of us, honestly.)

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#74
post #33
post #3

It's sad that the classical education is no more, but it's also true that the humanities rotted from within. Because carrying on the traditions of arts and letters was no longer considered valuable, the disciplines rushed to gut themselves in favor of far shallower and dodgier stuff, like political ideologies ("the only things that matter are race, class, and gender") and pseudo-technical gibberish. None of that has…

> It's sad that the classical education is no more, but it's also true that the humanities rotted from within This really resonated with me. I find the concept of a classical education immensely important. I originally wanted to be a music major before diverting to CS. Even during my CS studies, I took extra liberal coursework to try and "round out" my education: history courses, literature, etc. I found it troubling…

Take heart: things aren't quite as bad as you suggest. While the modern art world is certainly full of horrific hacks (Damien Hirst), a good amount of modern art truly is interesting (I'm rather fond of Jackson Pollock, myself).

Perhaps more importantly, representational and realistic art has been making a significant comeback in the last decade or so. Schools still teach classical painting techniques. Many artists create fantastic new work. For example, Adrian Gottlieb is a star, with prominent commissions and tremendous respect among collectors. Here's a wonderful portrait — http://www.adriangottlieb.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/4_J... — IMO, this level of work holds up well against the old masters, and it is less than ten years old.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#75
post #35

The first paragraph would be improved by the economic reality that dare not speak its name: adjunct . Most people who pursue the PhD in English will fail to join the one profession which actually needs English PhDs (training future English PhDs) and instead, if they want to continue putting to use the last 7+ years of their life dedicated to mastering the reification of privilege and construction of the other as demo…

I could never understand why my classmates had such trouble with getting good grades in English classes. Most of them attended similar if not superior high schools. The Catholic school students certainly should have had a better grasp of language and composition.

In the long run, my successes were a combination of reading experience and the ability to quickly create mental outlines. I was a voracious reader as a child because that was the only world that did not judge me. At a time when my father was going through his charismatic evangelical midlife crisis and my mother sat on the opposite side tossing me over as a peace offering to keep my sisters off limits, I insulated myself with the written word. I read roughly 800 books between 2nd and 3rd grade. While I could not diagram a sentence for you and could barely remember the difference between a pronoun and an gerund, if asked to put thought to paper then I had no problems.

In retrospect, I suppose it would be interesting to see how differently students would write if they weren't clobbered over the head for simple grammar errors. I used three of tricks to help me through college writing courses. The first was simply cutting out any superfluous language unless the paper required a ridiculously high word count. The second was to avoid, as much as possible, the use of any commas, colons, or semi-colons. The third was to always scan over my paper to make sure that my sentences weren't filled with sudden changes in tense. If you crush a student on small punctuation and grammar errors, don't be surprised when you end up with students who have never been able to fully express themselves, and therefore no longer know how to do so. Grammar is the stack of guidelines we use to help convey clear meaning, but grammar is not meaning itself. Language specifications don't write literature OR code.

What bothers me nowadays is that since I have immersed myself into the culture of the internet, my ability to sit and concentrate and compose thoughtful narrative has become stunted. My messages have become shorter and more direct, and my conversations change topic quickly. I wonder how it bodes for students who have never lived in an internet-free world.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#76
post #51
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Tourists in museums are generally bored by the classical/baroque/renaissance art section and entertained by the weird stuff in the contemporary section. If their jaws are agape it's because they are falling asleep, or because they weren't expecting the Mona Lisa to be so small.

And yet the classical/baroque/renaissance art museums are packed to the gills full of tourists who just sqeaked in after a 3 hour wait in line, while the modern art museums, while not empty, are certainly not trying to fend off the crowds. Nothing can prepare you for the press of people even in the off-season clamoring to get into the Uffizi -- who's main claims to fame are: 1) being the main museum in Florence 2) a…

A lot of people get photo realistic art. Its obviously difficult to achieve the colors and simulacrums with the technology of the time.

On the other hand, understanding the entire sequence of western art - of Grecian art, its loss and the elevation of stark, religiously themed art during the dark ages, followed by the renaissance and onwards, makes western history and an important chunk of many modern unspoken assumptions make sense.

In other words, starting with Middle-ages art but moving onwards is an effective and memorably way to hack the meta discussion humanity has been having about itself through the ages.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#77
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's sad that the classical education is no more, but it's also true that the humanities rotted from within This really resonated with me. I find the concept of a classical education immensely important. I originally wanted to be a music major before diverting to CS. Even during my CS studies, I took extra liberal coursework to try and "round out" my education: history courses, literature, etc. I found it troubling…

I think there is a deep truth here. Most artists are acute observers of the human condition. They distill the products of such observation into artistic truths and evolve forms to freshly present their insights. The problem is that there is only so much an acute observer can learn about the human condition and share with us. Have we really experienced many people who have pushed the limits of such acuity materially f…

Most artists are acute observers of the human condition.

Seriously? Most artists? Do you mean "most famous artists", or "the most accomplished artists", or "the best artists", or something like that? Or do you mean something like "artists tend to be more acute observers of the human condition than non-artists"?

I agree with the rest of your post, so if you meant the statement as it's written I'm going to assume that you either haven't met many artists or that you've just been lucky with the ones you've met.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#78
post #2

Do you really need to study a full English major to learn to write properly? Seems like one or two classes would do.

I like to imagine a bizarro literature based Hacker News where a person is saying "Do you really need a full Comp Sci major to write code? Seems like one or two classes would do." Of course you don't need to take an English major to write properly. But that is rarely the goal of taking an English major. Very few majors are actually about the mastery of one skill.

That would be the normal world, not the bizarro one. Most people here don't even have CS degrees, but picked up the relevant material as a hobby or on the job. And furthermore, would recognize that such real-world experience is much more important for what they do than what you learn in an artificial academic environment.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#80
post #58
post #35

The first paragraph would be improved by the economic reality that dare not speak its name: adjunct . Most people who pursue the PhD in English will fail to join the one profession which actually needs English PhDs (training future English PhDs) and instead, if they want to continue putting to use the last 7+ years of their life dedicated to mastering the reification of privilege and construction of the other as demo…

But your comment already takes for granted that there's no purpose in studying literature other than a career in academia (presumably because education is only about careers to begin with). I'd say the battle for the things worth caring about here was lost long before that assumption became not-even-worth-bothering-to-make-explicit. And sure, the economics are pathetic and the profession is rife with horseshit. The r…

Traditionally, this stuff was produced by the leisure classes

Spot-on, IMO.

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