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NY auto dealers trying to shut down Tesla Motors in NY

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Re: NY auto dealers trying to shut down Tesla Motors in NY

#71

Post by echohack »

jarrett wrote: post #63
just2n wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

English, specifically whatever dialect that is, is a horrible medium for encoding laws. Further, the diffing format used there is atrocious. Law is code. Why haven't we fixed this yet?

> Law is code. Why haven't we fixed this yet? Properly drafted English-language laws do read as code. It's like how you can describe formal logic in English: "All Americans wear hats. I am an American. Therefore I wear a hat." I take it you're arguing for something like Lojban, though. I see two problems there. First, it's not the (de facto) national language, which infringes on one's fundamental right to read the la…

> First, it's not the (de facto) national language, which infringes on one's fundamental right to read the laws of the land...

Legaleese requires you to take years of law classes to even understand, and makes the same problem. I think it's more accessible to run something through a compiler...

Re: NY auto dealers trying to shut down Tesla Motors in NY

#72

Post by shmerl »

jusben1369 wrote: post #54
shmerl wrote: post #46

I general, I find it bizarre that a law should exist, that protects some middleman position. Isn't it nonsense to protect such monopoly through the law? How can it coexist with the antitrust regulations?

If you find a law that's been on the books for a long time "bizarre" show some restraint. There is likely a very good set of reasons for its existence. Go and research those and see if you agree with them or not. But these "I'm totally bewildered how could this possibly be?!" comments add very little.

If instead of brushing it off you could explain what those reasons are, it could be more helpful. Thus my question. If you don't know them and assume they exist - I'm not convinced. There are bad laws which are pushed in by various lobbies (like DMCA). The fact that they can exist long is not a proof of the sanity of such laws.

Re: NY auto dealers trying to shut down Tesla Motors in NY

#74

Post by shmerl »

koenigdavidmj wrote: post #58
shmerl wrote: post #46

I general, I find it bizarre that a law should exist, that protects some middleman position. Isn't it nonsense to protect such monopoly through the law? How can it coexist with the antitrust regulations?

About 50% of the human race is middlemen, and they don't take kindly to being eliminated

Middlemen don't necessarily need laws to protect their position on the market. If they offer some value with their services - people will use them. If they need laws, it can be that their services aren't necessary at all for the consumer.

Re: NY auto dealers trying to shut down Tesla Motors in NY

#75

Post by [deleted] »

echohack wrote: post #71
jarrett wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Law is code. Why haven't we fixed this yet? Properly drafted English-language laws do read as code. It's like how you can describe formal logic in English: "All Americans wear hats. I am an American. Therefore I wear a hat." I take it you're arguing for something like Lojban, though. I see two problems there. First, it's not the (de facto) national language, which infringes on one's fundamental right to read the la…

> First, it's not the (de facto) national language, which infringes on one's fundamental right to read the laws of the land... Legaleese requires you to take years of law classes to even understand, and makes the same problem. I think it's more accessible to run something through a compiler...

[deleted]

Re: NY auto dealers trying to shut down Tesla Motors in NY

#76

Post by fragmede »

revelation wrote: post #22
echohack wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does this bill effect Telsa? Does Telsa have it's own company run franchises in New York or something? I've read the bill ( http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?default_fld=&bn=A07844&term... ) several times now, and it only seems to prohibit the franchisor from forcing franchisees from doing certain things. I'm not seeing text in here like, "We hereby force all franchisors to sell cars through franchisees." or "Sell…

I think it might be this? The format is terrible. The commissioner shall not issue any certificate of registration authorized by this section to any franchisor, MANUFACTURER, DISTRIBUTOR BRANCH OR FACTORY BRANCH, (caps are additions) I think the way Tesla has been doing business in many states is that they have just applied for dealership licenses.

The issue is that in some states (I'm specifically aware of Texas, thanks to http://www.teslamotors.com/advocacy_texas) there are laws that essentially prohibit the manufacturer from owning a dealership.

Re: NY auto dealers trying to shut down Tesla Motors in NY

#77

Post by dangrossman »

darkarmani wrote: post #49
Shivetya wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current arrangement came about as a means to benefit the manufacturers. The carrot was that they in turn would not attempt to circumvent the dealer system. Hence manufactures would produce cars in volume and sell them to the dealers. The dealers who made that investment in buying those cars then sold them for a profit. Dealers are protected by these same laws usually geographically. This in some way insulated the…

Why can't this all be enforced using contract law? I don't see McDonalds having burger dealerships codified into law, but rather franchise contracts that let them sell billions of pounds of beef, chicken, and potatoes through their "dealers."

McDonalds doesn't need any arrangement like that because nobody's interested in mail-ordering cheeseburgers from them, and if HQ wanted to put them in supermarkets and sell direct-to-consumer, it wouldn't affect the franchises anyway -- frozen burgers are not a substitute good for drive-thru fast-food meals.

Cars are different. If the manufacturers sell direct-to-consumer, then they can always undercut dealerships (no property/staff/service overhead); there will be no profit in buying new vehicles to resell on a lot. There either won't be "new car" dealerships anymore, or they'll essentially become showrooms earning a small commission referring orders to the manufacturer.

Either way, the current business model cannot persist without the dealership laws simply by "enforcing contract law". The dealers have no contracts prohibiting manufacturers from selling direct-to-consumer, and they have no leverage to get them to sign such contracts. The dealers need the manufacturers, while the manufacturers need far fewer dealers than there are for service centers.

Re: NY auto dealers trying to shut down Tesla Motors in NY

#78

Post by Symmetry »

pygy_ wrote: post #13
revelation wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No need to bring out the big conspiracy guns, this is just good olde' local corruption.

You restated his point, less dramatically.

Not at all. This isn't "corporations" but a coalition of small businesses.

Re: NY auto dealers trying to shut down Tesla Motors in NY

#79

Post by frogpelt »

cobrausn wrote: post #32
Shivetya wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current arrangement came about as a means to benefit the manufacturers. The carrot was that they in turn would not attempt to circumvent the dealer system. Hence manufactures would produce cars in volume and sell them to the dealers. The dealers who made that investment in buying those cars then sold them for a profit. Dealers are protected by these same laws usually geographically. This in some way insulated the…

None of your arguments tell me why this kind of relationship should be enforced by law, only why you might want to buy from a dealer and not a manufacturer directly.

Not now. But his arguments might tell you why the laws were created in the first place. Protection of consumers like you and me.

I honestly I can't see a good reason for labor unions to exist anymore either, but they're still around and have plenty of politicians on their side.

Re: NY auto dealers trying to shut down Tesla Motors in NY

#80

Post by Pwnguinz »

Symmetry wrote: post #78
pygy_ wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You restated his point, less dramatically.

Not at all. This isn't "corporations" but a coalition of small businesses.

Huh? "Corporation" is merely a registration status. A small-time business/startup may very well be incorporated as a Delaware C Corp.
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