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Logical Fallacies Are Usually Irrelevant or Cited Incorrectly

plover.net

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Re: Logical Fallacies Are Usually Irrelevant or Cited Incorrectly

#71

Far too often, logical fallacies are invoked in order to run away from an argument. I think this is the core point: the fallacy-lobbers are often looking to dismiss the entire conversation rather than trying to participate in it. There's no counter-argument; instead, the message is, "You're too dumb to bother with." That may sometimes be true, but it's never conducive to enlightening discussion.

It's called getting tired of wasting your time with someone who has no intention of changing their mind. If you point out that an argument is flawed and they say something like your quoted text, I'm going to ignore that person.

Re: Logical Fallacies Are Usually Irrelevant or Cited Incorrectly

#72

Humans typically communicate in a way that resists shallow logical analysis. In a real conversation, people use words rather than terms, make utterances rather than sentences, and employ a wider variety of inference methods than modus ponens. A great deal of what is communicated and inferred in a conversation depends on context; the speakers and audience, their history, their shared knowledge and confidences, the fee…

Sometimes opinions are just opinions, sometimes anecdotes are enlightening, and sometimes generalizations, metaphors, analogies and other abstractions come into play. Opinions are opinions. They should be stated and treated as such. If your "opinion" is stated in the form "x is y," then maybe you are the one who should be more conscious of the way people communicate. Sure, it's just an opinion; that's fine. Just don'…

>If your "opinion" is stated in the form "x is y," then maybe you are the one who should be more conscious of the way people communicate.

Irony much? :)

>"It [x] is irritating and intellectually backwards [y].

Re: Logical Fallacies Are Usually Irrelevant or Cited Incorrectly

#73
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've fallen into the trap the article talks about, in expecting the woman in the story to be talking logically and therefore held to a high standard of discourse. People say over-the-top, outrageous things out of emotionality, when they may mean something far less or completely different. Instead of seeing the woman's statements as a logical argument, one should see them as the expressions of emotion that they are,…

> People say over-the-top, outrageous things out of emotionality, when they may mean something far less or completely different. Yeah, but that's useless for communication of information (its useful for -- socially important -- request for and reception of sympathy, etc., especially from people with a shared emotional context.) OTOH, when presented in a context where the intent is to get people who don't share the em…

Gotta agree on this one. Appeals to emotion are for persuasive argumentation, and best applied against audiences for whom sympathy to your narrative is likely. Skeptics aren't that audience.

Re: Logical Fallacies Are Usually Irrelevant or Cited Incorrectly

#74

Humans typically communicate in a way that resists shallow logical analysis. In a real conversation, people use words rather than terms, make utterances rather than sentences, and employ a wider variety of inference methods than modus ponens. A great deal of what is communicated and inferred in a conversation depends on context; the speakers and audience, their history, their shared knowledge and confidences, the fee…

Sometimes opinions are just opinions, sometimes anecdotes are enlightening, and sometimes generalizations, metaphors, analogies and other abstractions come into play. Opinions are opinions. They should be stated and treated as such. If your "opinion" is stated in the form "x is y," then maybe you are the one who should be more conscious of the way people communicate. Sure, it's just an opinion; that's fine. Just don'…

I used to start a lot of my sentences with "I think...", "In my opinion...", or "To me it looks like..." and I noticed my emails would commonly go unresponded to, or worse: the conversation would go directly opposite of the point I was trying to make.

Lately I've been experimenting with just saying "x is y" or "x is broken the fix is y". Things seem to be working out better for me that way. It keeps my emails from getting cluttered and the words are obviously my own perspective and opinions, which I will sometimes make explicit at the end.

It is irritating that facts and opinions and everything else can't be kept separate from technical discussions, but that's just how many people communicate and there's not a lot that can be done if you want to include them in the conversation.

Re: Logical Fallacies Are Usually Irrelevant or Cited Incorrectly

#75

Far too often, logical fallacies are invoked in order to run away from an argument. I think this is the core point: the fallacy-lobbers are often looking to dismiss the entire conversation rather than trying to participate in it. There's no counter-argument; instead, the message is, "You're too dumb to bother with." That may sometimes be true, but it's never conducive to enlightening discussion.

I don't agree with this. I think the root problem in many "arguments" is that the two parties are speaking completely different languages or using two different rule sets. One side will use logical sounding arguments that aren't really logical, and the other side will actually use logic. The logical side isn't "running away" from this argument. They are taking it head on, as an argument should be taken. Or, you both…

In my opinion the root problem is a lack of recognition on what the assumptions and intentions are on either side. You can correctly apply logic to flawed assumptions and end up in some weird places. Similarly you can take the same set of facts and use different intentions to construct seemingly rational arguments out of them which end up at incompatible outcomes. Real world facts tend to be vague and messy, and are largely unsuitable for reasoning with.

Re: Logical Fallacies Are Usually Irrelevant or Cited Incorrectly

#76
This is wrong on so many levels that it's difficult to keep track of them all. Let's start with the introduction:

Why did people who deployed these [critical thinking] terms always look so rigid, so predictable, so feeble? Why did people who avoided them look so confident in comparison, so much more in command of their resources, so much more mature? Their arguments seemed to possess an inner strength; the baloney detectors, by contrast, only had strength in numbers.

Translation: Some people never shut up after they have been proven wrong, and the author values this assertiveness over whether their arguments are logically sound. He concludes that the most assertive arguer is automatically correct. He calls for the total abandonment of logic and reason and to respect force and effect in their stead.

His justification is the presumption that any person would quit an argument after being proved wrong; this is a false premise, as evidenced by the existence of liars, fanatics, and human choice. He applies this false premise to the whole of reason in order to condemn it; this is a strawman argument, a form of false premise, as reason has never presumed that its methods would lead to this result, but holds that its methods enable a witness to more accurately judge whose arguments are more likely to be correct. From there he reaches the conclusion that critical analysis is worthless. In an irony, he is himself attempting to use critical analysis to debunk critical analysis itself, but his foundation is so rotten that his argument is easily shown to be unjustified.

Next the author tries to declare certain forms of arguments as being off-limits to critical analysis, like emotional appeals. An emotional appeal is irrelevant to whether the stated facts are likely to be true or false. The dismissal of an argument for its emotional appeal is shorthand for saying that the argument has not justified its claims, but is trying to trick witnesses into believing its claims by appealing to their emotions instead of reason. If an argument truly has nothing behind it other than its appeal to emotion, then its dismissal as an appeal to the emotions is fully justified. He also applies the same protection to the Rush Limbaugh defense of people saying their lies, initially presented as serious factual claims, were meant to be taken as "comedy" when disproven, or as "irony, hyperbole, understatement, whimsy, counterfactual conjecture, or any other of the wonders of figurative language that defy semantic nit-picking". Contrary to having "nothing to contribute", "semantic nit-picking" tears these turns of phrase apart and exposes the argument being made.

Next he says that the correct identification of a logical error does not imply incorrectness of the argument. No comment is needed.

Finally, we get to the root cause. The author has constructed this framework of deliberate mental incompetence to justify supporting Rebecca Watson's claim that all Atheist men are sexist, with the implication being that Atheist men are sexist to such a degree that all of them are rapists-in-waiting. A supporting argument is laid out in a similar manner to the classic form, simplified as such:

Thesis: All Atheist men are sexist. 1. Z is an atheist man. 2. Z is not sexist. (Points 1 and 2 are repeated for a dozen more Zs)

It takes the complete abandonment of logic to conclude, as the author does, that the thesis is upheld and indeed strengthened by these arguments. As we have seen, the complete abandonment of logic is the author's goal. He wants you to believe that you should stop thinking logically because he writes so strongly and forcefully for it.

Re: Logical Fallacies Are Usually Irrelevant or Cited Incorrectly

#77
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally agree with his assessment of the misuse of the term ad-hominem too. An ad-hom fallacy is "your argument is wrong because you're an immoral moron", not "your argument is wrong for these reasons, you immoral moron". The latter is not very nice and probably shouldn't be encouraged, but it's not an ad-hominem because the insult is not part of the argument, just an unpleasant aside.

Also, there is nothing illogical about saying "this person or source of information has a reputation for being wrong or deceitful, therefore I will not be spending my time examining their claims." This is not really an ad hominem, just saying that due to the unlikelihood of an individual having anything to contribute, you are choosing to not engage their argument. I suppose this falls under "running away from the arg…

Very true — it's not illogical to think that, or to use it as a reason to ignore the discussion. Responding to someone by pointing that reasoning out, however, is very seldom going to lead to productive discussion. It's usually best left unsaid.

Re: Logical Fallacies Are Usually Irrelevant or Cited Incorrectly

#78

I'm surprised that neither the article nor the comments here mention the "principle of charity". I read about this early in my study of logic and philosophy. It basically says that, if your objective is to discover truth rather than to win a debate, you ought to grant the best possible interpretation of the speaker's statement instead of focusing on narrow and literal interpretations which contain obvious logical fal…

Most people start from the (ostensibly reasonable) assumption that you can't win an argument on the internet. It doesn't matter how cogent, how thought-provoking, how thoroughly researched and meticulously cited your position may be. You're not convincing the other side of anything. At best you can "win the crowd" in the Gladiator sense of the term. And this is what encourages most of the fallacy-citing, semantics ni…

Most people start from the (ostensibly reasonable) assumption that you can't win an argument on the internet

I should be spending more time in whatever corners of the Internet where you are.

Re: Logical Fallacies Are Usually Irrelevant or Cited Incorrectly

#79

Deductive logical systems cannot reliably find truth. That is the lesson of the scientific revolution and the revolution in mathematics that is most closely associated with Godel. Yet when people invoke "logical fallacies" they are almost always fallacies in deductive logic. Hey Internet--how about catching up to the 19th century and employing some inductive reasoning in your arguments? The problem with that, though,…

> Deductive logical systems cannot reliably find truth. Don't you mean inductive. > That is the lesson of the scientific revolution and the revolution in mathematics that is most closely associated with Godel. A lesson which hasn't permeated the "scientific revolution" perhaps with good reason.

Prior to the scientific revolution, philosophers attempted to deduce truth from first principles. Their record was mixed to say the least.

The revolution of science was to say we don't need Truth, we just need to look systematically at real facts, and come up with provisional theories that provide testable predictions about them. It has pulled humanity's collective head out of the clouds and created useful, practical, actionable knowledge.

Re: Logical Fallacies Are Usually Irrelevant or Cited Incorrectly

#80
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, in a good debate, the fallacies are taken as (Bayesian) evidence, even if obviously imperfect. Appeal to authority/experts: The fact that experts believe something is evidence in favor of it (albeit imperfect and overridable). Appeal to tradition: The fact that things have historically been done a certain way, in a highly immodular system with complex dependencies, without catastrophic failure is evidence i…

> Actually, in a good debate, the fallacies are taken as (Bayesian) evidence, even if obviously imperfect. I don't believe there is any reasonable definition of "good" where this is true. I think this characterization must rest on a misunderstanding of what the fallacies actually are . > Appeal to authority/experts: The fact that experts believe something is evidence in favor of it (albeit imperfect and overridable).…

>In the context of deductive, rather than inductive, argument.

The very context that you should never use, in other words, which was exactly my point! If you're going to require all evidence deductively imply a conclusion (i.e. have an infinite likelihood ratio), then you're excluding all real-world evidence, and making the very fallacy I described (which I didn't realize was claimed for something else).

So it seems you essentially agree with using the "appeal to authority" fallacy in exactly the way I warned against. And that you generally endorse (the genuine fallacy of) rejecting evidence simply because it doesn't guarantee a conclusion.

Whatever it is, that's not good debate, I'm afraid.

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