"Cheerleader come over and ask about programming? Shot down"
In what planet did you grow up?
Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)
71–80 of 148 posts
Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)
#72There's something ironic about a post on nerds being deliberately exclusionary which redirects IE browsers to a Safari download link.
This bit is particularly appropriate: Hell, programmers argue over web browsers. There is an elitist and closed-off system among hardcore coders that says certain things are better than others, usually for no reason, often for bad reasons.
Right.... as opposed to the rest of the population arguing over which (baseball team, basketball team, hockey team, football team, soccer team, nascar driver, music group, shoe label, clothing label) is better, which while I guess isn't "elitist and closed-off" definitely says certain things are better than others, usually for no reason, and often for bad reasons.
Or in other words, so-called nerds have different interests than the rest of the population, and they act completely normal about those interests within their peer group.
Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)
#73This writer is really clueless as to what high school is like for those on the bottom of the heap -- I mean, really, no idea at all. For that reason, it's hard to listen to what else he has to say, no matter how relevant or (potentially) awesome. Obvious that he's never been the low end of the totem pole. It may be different now, but when I was in high school, geeks and nerds got shit on by every group -- the jocks,…
I spent all my time on computers, I played Dungeons & Dragons. I spent all my time up until I was about 15 being shat on, and being incredibly angry because I thought I was being persecuted for my intelligence. Then, in my sophomore year, I took a drama class, realized that people didn't care what kind of person I was as long as I was an interesting person who wasn't too obnoxious, and began to move away from my nerd…
I just want to know how you can hold up the "Rails community" as a positive example of socially well adjusted people, when their acknowledged leader just explicitly approved of a presentation that would obviously result in complaints of sexual harassment in any normal workplace setting (and did result in such a complaint, although given in an almost apologetic tone because she knew that her complaints would not be well received by the Ruby community, and was proven right).
Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)
#74Earlier quoted context omitted.
the argument "you need to be smart in order to be part of the group" is the not the same as "being smart means you are in the group".
On its own yes. But in the phrase used: "Cheerleader come over and ask about programming? Shot down. Invitation to a study group? Rejected. The most bitingly ironic comes when a person in a group of nerds gets an invitation to a party. If you’re one of the more social people in your scene, try it. Invite an anime person or a programmer - one of those people - out to an event. Chances are you’ll be declined. There’s e…
...That's almost exactly what my article was about. It was that smart people exist in every group, and so by trying to use intelligence as an excuse for rejection you're causing trouble where there shouldn't be any.
I mean, considering I'm criticizing the nerd social atmosphere in a lengthy post, it's unlikely that I'm saying nerds suck because they're smart.
Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)
#75I'm sorry that's complete BS. Yes there are arrogant nerds and especially more on the internet where the 'geeky' have held sway for longer. But the simple fact is that as noonespecial pointed out, the sporty 'popular' will be more confident in a group of nerds than the other way around because there is no risk for them. The nerds can't make their day-to-day life in school a living hell.
What's the risk for nerds? When I developed the attitude I've got now, the one that accepts my faults and doesn't immediately get nasty, the change in people was almost immediate. Most people really would rather like you than dislike you, and the instant you start accepting them, they start liking you back. The people who are real jerks and tormentors drop it after it stops affecting you - and that doesn't mean your…
> What's the risk for nerds?
The risk, of course, is that they'll screw something up and the tormentors will continue to torment. These are generally socially awkward people we're talking about. You're being rather silly to suggest that someone who isn't at home in social situations to begin with and has been ostracized for pretty much their entire life is not at risk of real failure in a social environment.
I'm glad that you were successful in your social ladder climb. But you are pretending that _everyone_ will be successful. It's simply not a foregone conclusion - there are losers in this game, even among those who try their hardest not to be.
> you realize that nobody is any more at risk than anybody else
This is so very false that I don't even know where to begin. Are you saying that there are not real advantages and disadvantages in social situations? Can you not see that the captain of the football team is way less likely to be harassed than the math dweeb?
Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)
#76I don't get it. I went to a public school, and it was nothing like this - sure, we had our little tribes, and our little dramas, but most people belonged to several of them - I took lots of business and marketing classes and was a programmer nerd. Many other programmer nerds were actors, in marching band, and in the choir. The class president and swim team captain took AP CompSci, wasn't too bad of a programmer himse…
"Sure, there were dicks, but who cares about them?"
The real problem seems to be school violence and bullying, and it seems that in the U.S., at least, this is a non-trivial problem.
Dicks you can just ignore are one thing. Dicks who beat up kids smaller than them or pick out kids to ambush with their buddies, cannot be ignored. Sounds like this was not the case at your school, which is great. But it changes everything when violence is involved, and explains why unpopular "nerds" could display exclusion and paranoia, literally as a survival mechanism.
In schools where violence is not widespread, I think Rory's comments have more validity.
Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)
#77Earlier quoted context omitted.
I thought that was the point of the essay. We're all old (and hopefully mature enough) now to accept that maybe it wasn't completely the jock's (or whomever's) fault that the nerds were unpopular. An outside perspective is almost always useful in figuring things out. I found this essay hit home. I was definitely in the nerd group, and if I had read this in high school, it would've helped.
> maybe it wasn't completely the jock's (or whomever's) fault that the nerds were unpopular. I can agree with this to a point - by the time high school rolls around, yeah, the unpopular kids probably have adopted a set of behaviors that contributes to them being unpopular. However, those behaviors are probably defenses developed against some early damaging experiences. And who is responsible for those experiences? In…
To be completely honest, if I were to go back to elementary school and look at when I first started being divided from other kids, I'm almost certain it would have begun with me being an arrogant brat because of my intelligence. When you're bright, it's too tempting to try and rise above teasing by claiming superintelligence. I'm not saying that arrogance is a bad thing, but I feel that people who are persecuted for arrogance should at least admit that their own attitude is partly at fault. Of course, such an admission makes persecution less likely to happen. It's a nice circle.
Personally, I find it much more helpful not to worry about who to blame for unpopularity itself, and to focus more on what is _done_ to the unpopular. And the responsibility for that is much more clear.
To discuss a problem, you need to get to its root. The root of the problem is twofold: people on one side are too willing to ostracize themselves, and people on the other side don't want to spend time learning about people. My belief is that it's not the responsibility of others to spend time trying to understand you. I think that bullying is a problem, but frankly, if nerds were ostracized but not actively bullied I would find a hard time blaming the other kids and not the nerds. I actually discussed this problem with a professor: my solution to this problem would be twofold. First, get the other kids to realize why nerd things are cool. If people think programming is really super neato, then suddenly programmers are neato too. (It worked with math in my school: once you like math, then math geeks are pretty awesome kids. By my junior year all of the math kids hung out with the jock/class clown group.) At the same time, though, you've got to do the same in reverse. Teach the nerds to appreciate the non-nerds. Intolerance works both ways, and there are a lot of people willing to dismiss sports players or actors or musicians or artists or preps as stupid and meaningless, and what this essay's all about is that in my experience, the nerds are usually a lot less tolerant than the other people. My first day in college, when my roommate arrived, I was unpacking a virtual library, and he was carrying a volleyball, and my first impression was that we wouldn't get along because he wouldn't "understand" me. This year's taught me a lot about how you can be smart and not be a nerd, and I honestly think that the nerds are less aware of this than the other groups.
Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)
#78It made some good points, but was far too black-and-white, and I lost all respect for the essay when the writer started fellating Mark Zuckerberg.
Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)
#79Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The meek, quiet type usually gets ignored in favor of the one who talks too much in class, not because people hate smart people, but because there are certain sorts who are really jerks about it and that irritates people. Okay, wait a second. First off, I have a hard time picturing how someone can be that much of a "jerk" by answering a teacher's question. And secondly, are you honestly siding with a bully who beat…
My implication is that the tormented as not wholly innocent. Of course I don't agree with bullying. I'm not a huge fan of violence, particularly not for stupid shit like school. But there's an attitude amongst this type of person that says they are entirely not to blame for the harassment they get, just because they act smart or whatnot. I don't think that's the case. I used to get mocked a lot in school and looking…
> But there's an attitude amongst this type of person that says they are entirely not to blame for the harassment they get
They _are_ entirely not to blame for what they get. What they _are_ to blame for is their own behavior.
I don't have a problem with you saying that some people are irritating and do annoying things. What I have a problem with is the suggestion that they _share in the blame for what others do to them as a result_. There is a difference there, and it is an important one.
To be clear, I am going on the principle that a person is alone responsible for their actions, and not for those of others.
Re: Why People Don't Like Nerds or Programmers (In School)
#80> Cheerleader come over and ask about programming? Shot down. Invitation to a study group? Rejected. The most bitingly ironic comes when a person in a group of nerds gets an invitation to a party. If you’re one of the more social people in your scene, try it. Invite an anime person or a programmer - one of those people - out to an event. Chances are you’ll be declined. There’s every possibility you’ll be rejected imp…
I think my group of friends prided ourselves on being a little more inclusive, an easy distinction to achieve, but we still followed the same pattern the popular people did and the same pattern followed by HN: we valued the current state of our group and wanted to protect it. We knew we could drive out most people just by being ourselves, but more desperate people had to be sent social cues saying, "You're welcome once in a while, but don't push it." I don't remember us being overtly rude, though.
I remember being particularly mortified about a retarded kid who kept coming and talking to me about his chances of getting into "Hahvahd." I don't know who was messing with his head, but he honestly thought that being an Eagle Scout (honorary, I'm sure) gave him a a good shot at getting into Harvard, and he wanted to talk to me about it. The retarded kid was a bit slower with the social cues. I hated him for that. And I was smart enough to know that's how normal people felt about me, which made me hate him even worse, but I never made fun of him to his face.