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Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes

#71

Post by vidarh »

pointyhats wrote: post #59
alan_cx wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but in the UK there is a wind of judgemental tabloid nastiness in this area. Lies like this are made up daily, based on a very small minority, and huge chunks of people are tarred with the same brush. So, yeah, where is the research? Well, there is none, because apart from tabloid smearing lies, there is none. What is "obvious" is how nasty people are in the UK towards the poor working classes, who are under cons…

And by making the distinction of working class are you not contributing to that bias? I treat all people as classless. The people described by myself are not bound by class, but by attitude and morals. There is no class distinction involved. The problem is not specific to one traditional "class". The whole "tabloid smearing lies" drivel is another form of enforced division by promoting classes of reading. This sort o…

> I treat all people as classless.

What a convenient fantasy.

> The problem is not specific to one traditional "class".

Except it is, because it is only a problem by the implication that signs of wealth means that insufficient money must have been used on what is needed for the infant

Re: Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes

#72

Post by gmac »

pointyhats wrote: post #34
brazzy wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please read up on the difference between anecdotes and data, and selective perception.

I know the differences, probably more than you realise. I presented a hypothesis, which you can turn into a theory by sitting outside ASDA for a bit with a clipboard and a copy of SPSS. My suggestion was that you should try it.

Because ASDA in Feltham or Hounslow is a probability sample of humanity? I don't think so.

Re: Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes

#73

Post by belorn »

jan_g wrote: post #35
ProcessBlue wrote: post #33

Lovely article. However, I must say that the box is only the tip of the iceberg. It's been almost four years since we went through the gauntlet so my memory may be a bit fuzzy but if I remember correctly the FREE tier of forming babby in Finland includes: - Initially monthly (increaing to weekly) pre-natal checkups that include bloodwork, metabolism tests, ultrasounds and any treatments necessary to ensure the baby's…

It is worth noting that all this is not free, but paid for by the tax payer. Many European countries have similar arrangements. Personally, I think all this is money well spent by the governments as it gives nice financial boost to young parents and a sense that someone/something cares about them and their baby.

> It is worth noting that all this is not free, but paid for by the tax payer.

While its technically true, its really misrepresent it. Every time i hear that argument it sounds like a kid holding one part of a singular share of Microsoft stock, proclaiming to the world that he has now "funded Microsoft!" because of his $10 investment.

Sure, in societies with lower tax, the state would be less likely to be funding a baby box. However, in trade of, society itself tend to then evolve a culture of charities to handle the slack. The US is a good example here, where such a box would likely also exist in some places, but maybe coupled with a bible or a cooperation logo on. People could then argue that such a thing is also "not free", but provide under advertisement for a religion or brand.

So while its technically true that this is a gift paid by tax payers money, that description deserve a lesser attention that we currently are giving it.

Re: Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes

#74

Post by RyanMcGreal »

Now this is my kind of nanny state. A thought:

This program started for low-income families but was extended after a few years to all families. The nice thing about universality rather than means testing is that a) middle class families are more apt to continue supporting it if they can experience its benefits first-hand; b) you save the money that would otherwise be spent testing, enforcing and auditing the system; and c) it builds solidarity and shared values rather than socioeconomic conflict and what I've come to regard as revenge egalitarianism.

Re: Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes

#75

Post by vidarh »

pointyhats wrote: post #43
brazzy wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you should know that your hypothesis remains unsupported by any data until that is done, and that it's not the job of people who doubt your hypothesis to do so. Apart from that, the location itself would introduce a bias, and I'm curious how exactly you would recognize women in the process of spending the maternity grant.

Yes it is unsupported. I admit that. But it's clearly observable. I'm sure many people here observe it regularly. You specify the problem the wrong way around. The women got pregnant because the maternity grant was offered as is a cosy council house and a career of being pregnant. That's how it works here. When you have three children like myself you spend a lot of time around parents and maternity units and the gene…

Many things are "clearly observable".

My using the "observable" trump card, I could claim that it is usual to hang around billionaires all day and spend the working day sailing. I've observed that first hand.

But without evidence of frequency, it is a meaningless observation that is more likely to say something about observational biases than society at large.

Re: Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes

#76

Post by belorn »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #70

The first thing that I noticed about the box is that all the baby clothes are sex-neutral. Here in North America it's almost impossible to find baby clothes that don't immediately scream "I'm a boy" or "I'm a girl".

To my understanding, parents in Finland don't normally know the biological sex of the child before birth. If the box is given before the actually birth, then it makes sense to make the colors gender neutral.

Re: Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes

#77

Post by pointyhats »

vidarh wrote: post #71
pointyhats wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And by making the distinction of working class are you not contributing to that bias? I treat all people as classless. The people described by myself are not bound by class, but by attitude and morals. There is no class distinction involved. The problem is not specific to one traditional "class". The whole "tabloid smearing lies" drivel is another form of enforced division by promoting classes of reading. This sort o…

> I treat all people as classless. What a convenient fantasy. > The problem is not specific to one traditional "class". Except it is, because it is only a problem by the implication that signs of wealth means that insufficient money must have been used on what is needed for the infant

Firstly it's not a fantasy unless you make it one. As someone brought up on a shoestring budget in one of the worst bits of London, I can assure you that in the real world, class is entirely irrelevant and ethics and morals are. There are people earning a quarter of what I do and three times what I do living either side of me and we're all on the same page, have the same ideals, hopes and goals.

There are no classes other than in the media.

Secondly, health is more important than purchasing branded and luxury goods. That is universally accepted as to shortcut ones health is to cause harm and the "golden rule" backs that up. To observe both signs of wealth and signs of poverty at the same time has certain obvious implications.

It's all logic.

Re: Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes

#78

Post by jan_g »

belorn wrote: post #73
jan_g wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is worth noting that all this is not free, but paid for by the tax payer. Many European countries have similar arrangements. Personally, I think all this is money well spent by the governments as it gives nice financial boost to young parents and a sense that someone/something cares about them and their baby.

> It is worth noting that all this is not free, but paid for by the tax payer. While its technically true, its really misrepresent it. Every time i hear that argument it sounds like a kid holding one part of a singular share of Microsoft stock, proclaiming to the world that he has now "funded Microsoft!" because of his $10 investment. Sure, in societies with lower tax, the state would be less likely to be funding a b…

It's more than a baby box. I do not know how familiar you are with some European countries' social system, but young parents are usually given quite a few months of vacation time and salary from the state, a sort of children allowance until a child is 18 years old (100EUR or so), tax deductions for every child until a child is 18 years old, kindergarten 'bonuses', free health care for every child and similar.

So this definitely deserves a lot of attention as it makes young parents' lives quite easier. And I am not arguing against it, just that in the end someone has to pay for it.

Re: Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes

#80

Post by codeulike »

ars wrote: post #30
pavlov wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Duh. It's obviously not the box itself that has reduced mortality. The "cardboard box" is a rhetorical shortcut that refers to the contents of the box and all the associated materials such as the written guides on infant care. There's a strong autistic trait in HN discussion sometimes...

> contents of the box and all the associated materials such as the written guides on infant care None of that did anything either, since other countries didn't have them and infant mortality went down there too.

And those other countries were identical in every respect and hence perfect statistical controls?
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