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Singapore to regulate high traffic websites that report on Singapore

reuters.com

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Re: Singapore to regulate high traffic websites that report on Singapore

#71

Post by joonix »

javert wrote: post #34
rayiner wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Singapore and China are proof of two things: 1) Freedom is not a necessary condition for economic prosperity (which undermines a lot of American rhetoric of the last 50 years); 2) The global business community doesn't give a shit about democracy, as demonstrated by its rush to embrace China, the Middle East, etc, and the corresponding apologizing about their political systems. I nearly puked on Metro North the other…

> Freedom is not a necessary condition for economic prosperity (which undermines a lot of American rhetoric of the last 50 years) That is demonstrably false. Everywhere you look, throughout history, the more free a country is, the more economically prosperous it becomes. In fact, _every single example_ fits this pattern. There is not a single exception. China and Singapore are much more economically free than the US…

How can you say China is "economically free" with a straight face? Surely people can't believe this. Try to import something into China. Try to take RMB out of it. etc etc. It's one of the most centrally planned economies out there with much of its wealth generated by state-owned companies.

Re: Singapore to regulate high traffic websites that report on Singapore

#72

Post by rayiner »

Steko wrote: post #69
mseebach wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What China shows (and what counters the US rhetoric) is that evidently economic freedom can (at least to some extend) cause prosperity without political freedom. Common wisdom has predicted the rise of some kind of political freedom in China for years now, but what has actually been seen to be on the rise is better governance - an oft-cited example is the case of Bo Xilai[1]. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bo_Xilai…

"What China shows" We certainly haven't seen the endgame of China's development. Confidently claiming that China has 'prosperity without political freedom' is simply playing fast and loose with terminology. The stronger and more educated the middle class gets, the more freedoms they demand. Taiwan and South Korea were dictatorships but get freer every year. Still it took decades of small steps to get where they are t…

The issue is causation. The American mantra for the last 50 years has been that freedom causes economic development. What we're seeing with China is economic prosperity causing increased pressure for political freedom (though at a dramatically slower rate than I think Americans circa 1960 would have predicted).

Re: Singapore to regulate high traffic websites that report on Singapore

#73

Post by Symmetry »

mseebach wrote: post #19
revelation wrote: post #7

Oops, the cool, tax-saving getaway is a fascist dictatorship. Who could have known.

It's generally well known that Singapore has no political freedom and only limited freedom of speech. However, financial freedom is in short supply in the world, and Singapore is one of the nicer places that have it. To call Singapore a "fascist dictatorship" is only true in the most literal senses of the words. It's by no means perfect, but Singapore has a much better record on human rights than anyone generally con…

Fascist? Really? As far as I can tell Singapore isn't nationalist at all or totalitarian. I'm not sure you could even call them outright authoritarian, fines for large organizations criticizing the government is bad but it's not nearly as bad as arresting individuals for the same.

They're not a dictatorship either. Their political structure does have a working set of checks and balances that does seem to prevent an individual at the top from doing whatever they want. Call them a "paternalistic oligarchy" if you want, but "fascist dictatorship" is way out of line.

Re: Singapore to regulate high traffic websites that report on Singapore

#74

Post by EliRivers »

javert wrote: post #34
rayiner wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Singapore and China are proof of two things: 1) Freedom is not a necessary condition for economic prosperity (which undermines a lot of American rhetoric of the last 50 years); 2) The global business community doesn't give a shit about democracy, as demonstrated by its rush to embrace China, the Middle East, etc, and the corresponding apologizing about their political systems. I nearly puked on Metro North the other…

> Freedom is not a necessary condition for economic prosperity (which undermines a lot of American rhetoric of the last 50 years) That is demonstrably false. Everywhere you look, throughout history, the more free a country is, the more economically prosperous it becomes. In fact, _every single example_ fits this pattern. There is not a single exception. China and Singapore are much more economically free than the US…

"Everywhere you look, throughout history, the more free a country is, the more economically prosperous it becomes."

So why isn't Somalia, for example, the richest country on earth?

Re: Singapore to regulate high traffic websites that report on Singapore

#75

Post by EliRivers »

Zoepfli wrote: post #55

Any Singaporeans here? What's preventing you from chatting up the government and ask for free elections? They don't seem that evil to me..? You know, tell them "thanks, you did a great job developing this country, but we would like to take it from here and control our own future...". What would happen? Is there any way to do this that would be successful?

It's gradually happening. The PAP hold fewer seats now than at any time in Singaporean history.

Re: Singapore to regulate high traffic websites that report on Singapore

#76

Post by ValentineC »

csomar wrote: post #66
rayiner wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Singapore and China are proof of two things: 1) Freedom is not a necessary condition for economic prosperity (which undermines a lot of American rhetoric of the last 50 years); 2) The global business community doesn't give a shit about democracy, as demonstrated by its rush to embrace China, the Middle East, etc, and the corresponding apologizing about their political systems. I nearly puked on Metro North the other…

1- China is not prosperous. 2- Singapore is a small and unique example. 3- The middle east is wealthy because of natural resources, and here lack of freedom really helps.

Would you mind elaborating on #3? I would like to learn more about how abundant natural resources and a lack of freedom produce wealth.

Re: Singapore to regulate high traffic websites that report on Singapore

#77

Post by ValentineC »

Symmetry wrote: post #73
mseebach wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's generally well known that Singapore has no political freedom and only limited freedom of speech. However, financial freedom is in short supply in the world, and Singapore is one of the nicer places that have it. To call Singapore a "fascist dictatorship" is only true in the most literal senses of the words. It's by no means perfect, but Singapore has a much better record on human rights than anyone generally con…

Fascist? Really? As far as I can tell Singapore isn't nationalist at all or totalitarian. I'm not sure you could even call them outright authoritarian, fines for large organizations criticizing the government is bad but it's not nearly as bad as arresting individuals for the same. They're not a dictatorship either. Their political structure does have a working set of checks and balances that does seem to prevent an i…

Singapore has, at various times, used the pretext of police investigation to detain individuals who have openly criticised public policy in the mass media. [1] and [2] are recent examples.

What it comes down to is rule by fear — Singaporeans, having read about said people being detained in the news, become conditioned into being scared of getting into trouble and breaking the law.

[1] http://blogs.wsj.com/searealtime/2013/04/25/singapore-probes...

[2] http://www.lianainfilms.com/2013/02/in-which-lim-makes-me-ko...

Re: Singapore to regulate high traffic websites that report on Singapore

#78

Post by dmix »

EliRivers wrote: post #74
javert wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Freedom is not a necessary condition for economic prosperity (which undermines a lot of American rhetoric of the last 50 years) That is demonstrably false. Everywhere you look, throughout history, the more free a country is, the more economically prosperous it becomes. In fact, _every single example_ fits this pattern. There is not a single exception. China and Singapore are much more economically free than the US…

"Everywhere you look, throughout history, the more free a country is, the more economically prosperous it becomes." So why isn't Somalia, for example, the richest country on earth?

Lawless != freedom.

For example, the fair enforcement of property or contract laws is essential for economic prosperity.

Also the comment you cited implies relative prosperity within the country itself, not compared to every country in the world.

Re: Singapore to regulate high traffic websites that report on Singapore

#79

Post by Steko »

rayiner wrote: post #72
Steko wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"What China shows" We certainly haven't seen the endgame of China's development. Confidently claiming that China has 'prosperity without political freedom' is simply playing fast and loose with terminology. The stronger and more educated the middle class gets, the more freedoms they demand. Taiwan and South Korea were dictatorships but get freer every year. Still it took decades of small steps to get where they are t…

The issue is causation. The American mantra for the last 50 years has been that freedom causes economic development. What we're seeing with China is economic prosperity causing increased pressure for political freedom (though at a dramatically slower rate than I think Americans circa 1960 would have predicted).

Definitely in agreement on the causation running the other way.

Re: Singapore to regulate high traffic websites that report on Singapore

#80

Post by javert »

rayiner wrote: post #70
javert wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said that freedom means "political self-determination." But what you apparently mean by "self-determination," is "majority-determination." You should read "1984." It covers doublespeak. Apparently, in the sources you read, doublespeak about "freedom" has been going on for about 300-400 years.

The "self" in "self-determination" refers to the people, not individuals.

That wasn't lost on me. That was my point.

A better word for it would be "group-determination" or "people-determination."

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