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Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

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Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#71

Post by robomartin »

lsc wrote: post #66
robomartin wrote: post #58

Fantastic. The OP scored. As for you, the average reader, go/stay in school and get a degree. Life throws all kinds of curves at you. At 20-something it might be cool and trendy to be a modern hippie-techie drinking latte's and coding for Google, Facebook or whoever. One day you might wake up in an entirely different landscape at thirty, fourty or fifty years of age and regret the fact that you did not take the time…

>Not everyone is going to drop out of high school or college and launch a billion dollar company. Neither did this guy. Most of us without degrees did something similar to what this guy did; do a high dollar job for a while for a low-dollar wage, and eventually you build up enough reputation that you can get paid market rate. >As for you, the average reader, go/stay in school and get a degree. Life throws all kinds o…

Going to school later on isn't a bad idea or impossible. It could be a good idea for some. I would guess for most it is difficult, if not impossible. Throw a couple of kids and a mortgage into the equation and it's really tough to make independent (and risky) decisions.

At some level I am suggesting this has nothing to do with earning more money but rather being able to get a job and not loose it to someone with a degree.

I don't know the answer to this question: How many technical people work at places like SpaceX without having at least a BS? Probably few, if any. You'd have to have a pretty serious track record to get past the filters at companies like that.

I am not being elitist here. Not at all. I am merely suggesting that the reader consider want it might mean not to have a degree later in life.

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#72

Post by neilk »

vinkelhake wrote: post #47

About one and a half year ago, a long time IRC buddy from the states suggested that I'd apply to Google. I was a 30-something programmer with a wife and kid who had spent the last 12 years working on trading systems in Europe. I decided to go ahead. Both because I wanted to see what the interview process was actually like and if I could pull it off. Going to work for Google seemed very distant at the time. After tele…

Same here. I have a degree from a Canadian university, but not in anything CS-related. I can pass a coding interview fairly easily, but getting into the US is a tremendous pain in the ass.

And once you're there, you won't be able to get a Green Card in a year or two, like all your colleagues. No advanced STEM degree; you go to the back of the line. You're looking at waiting a decade or more to really be in control of your own life. Possible, maybe, for someone in their early 20s, but if you are that young, why wouldn't you just get a degree?

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#73

Post by aortega »

alberich wrote: post #49
alberich wrote: post #29

I'm a bit curious, why do most programmers like to call themselves engineers even though programming is not engineering?

why the downvote? Donald Knuth himself describes programming as an Art.

It was when Donald Knuth wrote that, 50 years ago. Nowadays it is engineering. It is desirable for a programmer to build software, within a specific time, specific cost and certain specs. 100% Engineering. Now this is valid for 99% of software jobs out there. You will always find some company that does software research, but it's the 1%.

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#74

Post by robomartin »

randomdata wrote: post #70
robomartin wrote: post #58

Fantastic. The OP scored. As for you, the average reader, go/stay in school and get a degree. Life throws all kinds of curves at you. At 20-something it might be cool and trendy to be a modern hippie-techie drinking latte's and coding for Google, Facebook or whoever. One day you might wake up in an entirely different landscape at thirty, fourty or fifty years of age and regret the fact that you did not take the time…

> Don't be a moron. Get a degree. According to the stats for my region, 56% of women and 45% of men start into a degree program, yet the degree attainment rate is only 25%. I find this attitude a little bit troubling when such a large percentage of the population are already trying and failing. Given the costs – actual and opportunity – involved, unless you are certain you are in the top ~25% of students and can deri…

So long as you are willing to work way down the pay scale, sure. I am merely describing what I think is important in technical fields based on what I have seen around me over the years. I know a guy with enough college credit for four degrees. Never completed the requirements for any one degree. It was incredibly difficult for him to get a job as he got older. A degree would have opened a lot of doors. You go from having to explain and prove yourself to people assuming you are well qualified at a certain level.

Look, I've also seen the opposite. I've seen PhD's who are just about worthless. I mean, not a clue. Can't connect the dots. I've seen enough of this to be absolutely biased against PhD's (sorry). Great for academic research but stay the fuck away from work where anything has to be done in the real world.

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#75

Post by randomdata »

robomartin wrote: post #69
jmathai wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I generally agree with you. While I think college is drastically over priced (both in terms of time and money spent) it's the best option for the majority of people. There are exceptions though. And even for those exceptions it's not as if going to college hinders them. At most it delays what they would have done had they not gone to college. Truth is most people out of high school don't know what they want to do. Mo…

There are other aspects to this issue. I'll preface this by saying that I know this will be offensive to a number of people. So be it. American secondary/high-school education, outside of schools and communities outside the norm, is horribly bad. This is the reason Americans have a reputation for being ignorant. And that they are. I would venture to say that the average European secondary school graduate runs circles…

> American secondary/high-school education, outside of schools and communities outside the norm, is horribly bad.

I'm not sure it is that simple. I recall a recent article that said Canada has one of the best education systems, but, if I recall correctly, 70% of Canadians fit a certain demographic. If you observed only that same demographic in the US, the students in the US actually did better than their Canadian counterparts.

It suggested the problem wasn't the education system in the US itself, but rather much deeper social problems.

> In a lot of cases you will loose, regardless of what your actual capabilities might be.

The good news for those without degrees is that high paying jobs are naturally, by the laws of supply and demand, the ones where employers cannot be picky. If you want to fight for the "bottom of the barrel" jobs, then sure, a degree is probably going to be a significant filtering device. If you're looking at top paying jobs, then outside of legal requirements, the degree isn't going to matter because employers will be happy to have found anyone with some skills.

Programming is currently in that in-demand category, and as such the incomes are high and the education requirements are low. It is kind of funny to see that people think this is something genuinely unique to programming though. It is just economics.

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#76

Post by robomartin »

randomdata wrote: post #75
robomartin wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are other aspects to this issue. I'll preface this by saying that I know this will be offensive to a number of people. So be it. American secondary/high-school education, outside of schools and communities outside the norm, is horribly bad. This is the reason Americans have a reputation for being ignorant. And that they are. I would venture to say that the average European secondary school graduate runs circles…

> American secondary/high-school education, outside of schools and communities outside the norm, is horribly bad. I'm not sure it is that simple. I recall a recent article that said Canada has one of the best education systems, but, if I recall correctly, 70% of Canadians fit a certain demographic. If you observed only that same demographic in the US, the students in the US actually did better than their Canadian cou…

I am proposing that a degree becomes more important later on in life and that this is why one should obtain it as early as practical.

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#77

Post by georgemcbay »

munin wrote: post #61
lawnchair_larry wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was on a team of about 10 that had at least one of each: HS dropout, HS diploma, bachelor CS, masters CS, Ph.D. CS. Most people weren't really aware - many came from other teams, so they didn't interview each other, and it just never came up. Everyone is just known by their title/responsibilities. There were two people in particular that were carrying a lot of that team. Not only did they do the most work, they fix…

I was a Sam in one of these stories once. Now I'm back in school, finishing my degree. In my version, the next few weeks were not happy ones for Sam. You can ask yourself "how can it possibly matter" all day long but it doesn't matter. Just get the degree. You'll thank yourself later.

I don't have a degree and have no intention of getting one (not because I think getting a degree is worthless in general, but rather I feel it is worthless for me at this stage).

I did go to college for a few years but quit to work at a company I was co-oping at (which presumably was against the rules of the co-op program the company was in with the school, but I never gave it much thought back then).

I'm currently nearing 40 and don't feel that the lack of degree has negatively impacted me. Of course, YMMV depending upon career arc -- I'm still coding, and have no interest in management roles.

Also, one of my multiple moonlighting side projects is volunteering at a nano-engineering lab at UCSD working on writing Go code to control a UV-light-based polymerizing nano-scale biomaterials 3D printer. Nobody there seems to care I don't have a degree, nor has it come up negatively at my current or any of my previous jobs.

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#78

Post by munin »

georgemcbay wrote: post #77
munin wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was a Sam in one of these stories once. Now I'm back in school, finishing my degree. In my version, the next few weeks were not happy ones for Sam. You can ask yourself "how can it possibly matter" all day long but it doesn't matter. Just get the degree. You'll thank yourself later.

I don't have a degree and have no intention of getting one (not because I think getting a degree is worthless in general, but rather I feel it is worthless for me at this stage). I did go to college for a few years but quit to work at a company I was co-oping at (which presumably was against the rules of the co-op program the company was in with the school, but I never gave it much thought back then). I'm currently n…

That's awesome for you. I wish that had been my experience. I will share with you (one of) my stor(ies).

I had been working at a big company for almost five years with no degree and asked my boss "what's next". He arranged a meeting between me and the technical director for our division.

During the course of this meeting another employee reveale to the technical director that I did not have a degree. The technical director refused to talk to me (or even look at me) during and after that meeting and it became apparent from that point forward that there was both no way for me to advance and that my days could be considered numbered.

Your milage may vary. Until that conversation I was a valued member of technical staff that had taken on a variety of leadership roles, authored white papers and was on very good terms with the senior technical leadership in our customers. The lack of a degree killed it all.

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#79

Post by georgemcbay »

munin wrote: post #78
georgemcbay wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have a degree and have no intention of getting one (not because I think getting a degree is worthless in general, but rather I feel it is worthless for me at this stage). I did go to college for a few years but quit to work at a company I was co-oping at (which presumably was against the rules of the co-op program the company was in with the school, but I never gave it much thought back then). I'm currently n…

That's awesome for you. I wish that had been my experience. I will share with you (one of) my stor(ies). I had been working at a big company for almost five years with no degree and asked my boss "what's next". He arranged a meeting between me and the technical director for our division. During the course of this meeting another employee reveale to the technical director that I did not have a degree. The technical di…

Yeah like I mentioned YMMV, I'm sure.

For some people getting a degree might be the right choice, especially if they intend to get more into management in largish companies.

Re: Four Steps to Google, Without a Degree

#80

Post by Techasura »

robomartin wrote: post #58

Fantastic. The OP scored. As for you, the average reader, go/stay in school and get a degree. Life throws all kinds of curves at you. At 20-something it might be cool and trendy to be a modern hippie-techie drinking latte's and coding for Google, Facebook or whoever. One day you might wake up in an entirely different landscape at thirty, fourty or fifty years of age and regret the fact that you did not take the time…

I don't have a college degree, i work for one of the new and successful startup today. Yes, i do regret about not having a degree sometimes[when i'm drunk]. But most of the times, my life is exactly what the OP has written. Life is fantastic for me today. i'm having 5 years of beautiful experience working on amazing things. Having a degree, you are constricting yourself to one thing. But for me, i'm free to try anything provided i have people and their support, which i have actually got over the past. I'm hoping to die happily now. I have tried 7 roles and perfected in one. I want to bring a change, not everyone can spend 7000$ to get a degree. That 7000$ can give food and life for a group of people for 5 years. Think my friend.
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