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Hug vs. Handshake

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Re: Hug vs. Handshake

#71

Post by peterwwillis »

corin_ wrote: post #65
peterwwillis wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may feel awkward at first, but asking is a form of showing respect. The worst that can happen is they say no. Maybe the best reason to do this is to practice consent culture in our everyday lives. As it relates to HN readership, consent culture would go a long way in improving the work [and convention] environment for women in technology. I wish more awkward nerds would read up on this. http://pervocracy.blogspot.…

I think our circles may have different social norms. Being asked wouldn't feel like respect, it would feel even more awkward than asking someone else. And the idea that this needs a shift towards "consent culture" is just... weird. Maybe some people can't read, or don't feel comfortable trying to read, the signs as to what will work socially, and if they want to set rules that's fine. I don't have any problem with so…

I acknowledge that you would not like to be asked for a hug. Different people like to be treated differently. But my rule accounts for one thing: there is more potential for harm by not asking. Better safe than sorry, as it were. You are welcome to ignore my suggestion :-)

(Also, the article doesn't suggest you ask everyone before you have sex with them; it's more about being mindful of "is this person really into it, or could I be pressuring them?" If you believe it is impossible for this to happen, think again, as all perception is skewed by personal bias)

Re: Hug vs. Handshake

#72

Post by corin_ »

peterwwillis wrote: post #71
corin_ wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think our circles may have different social norms. Being asked wouldn't feel like respect, it would feel even more awkward than asking someone else. And the idea that this needs a shift towards "consent culture" is just... weird. Maybe some people can't read, or don't feel comfortable trying to read, the signs as to what will work socially, and if they want to set rules that's fine. I don't have any problem with so…

I acknowledge that you would not like to be asked for a hug. Different people like to be treated differently. But my rule accounts for one thing: there is more potential for harm by not asking. Better safe than sorry, as it were. You are welcome to ignore my suggestion :-) (Also, the article doesn't suggest you ask everyone before you have sex with them; it's more about being mindful of "is this person really into it…

Re: your parentheses. I didn't read the article, but your point of "ask everyone if they want a hug", if it's important enough for that, surely you should definitely ask everyone when it comes to sex! The "ask yourself if they are OK with it" approach is exactly what most people do with handshakes/hugs/etc.

Re: Hug vs. Handshake

#73

Post by claudius »

unalone wrote: post #61
claudius wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very non-silly logic. Why should I care about your chromosome configuration or sexual identification? It is not my business, and I expect you to respect that. Hence it is absolutely obvious to treat men and women equally and not adapt one’s greetings procedures to the gender of the other person. After all, punching girls is exactly as appropriate as punching guys.

If you think that treating genders equally has nothing to do with accepting variations in social norms, then you're missing pretty much the whole purpose of the "treat women equally to men" thing. Gender inequality is almost wholly a social problem, not a biological one. And

> Gender inequality is almost wholly a social problem, not a biological one.

Yes. A problem where people find it appropriate for women to hug men but not for men to hug women. A problem where people find it appropriate for women to hug women but not for men to hug men. A problem where people find it appropriate to expect men to hug women. A problem where people find it appropriate for boys punching boys but not for boys punching girls.

You can hardly get any more gender-unequal than that.

Re: Hug vs. Handshake

#74

Post by [deleted] »

peterwwillis wrote: post #17

Do not hug someone without asking first. Also, don't do the open-arms-moving-in-and-then-asking-for-a-hug. People who might feel uncomfortable hugging you now feel socially forced to. Ask the first time, and ask if you can hug them again in the future. If you're really feeling awkward, start out with a hand wave as you approach the person... either they'll wave back, or try to initiate a handshake/hug with you. Eithe…

[deleted]

Re: Hug vs. Handshake

#75

Post by jedberg »

CognitiveLens wrote: post #53
melvinmt wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weird, I have the complete opposite: I have a slight feeling of distrust when somebody gives me a weak hand.

I've always wondered what happens when two people meet who literally don't flex any muscle in their hand while shaking... must be some kind of strange hand mashing. I grip with what I hope is a sincere level of firmness - as in, "I'm really pleased to be shaking your hand, thank you" - and I'm flummoxed when it feels as though the other person has simply dangled their appendage for me to interact with.

> and I'm flummoxed when it feels as though the other person has simply dangled their appendage for me to interact with.

This was a wonderful turn of phrase. It should be in some sales manual or something.

Re: Hug vs. Handshake

#76

Post by JDGM »

JonnieCache wrote: post #34

I'm more concerned about the strength of handshakes. I have a bias against anyone who actively squeezes my hand with anything beyond a simple, firm grasp. It comes across as macho, like you've got something to prove, and therefore untrustworthy. I'd like to point out here that I'm admitting a bias rather than expressing an opinion. EDIT: at least now I'm approaching something resembling adulthood I don't have the pro…

I think I'm basically with you on this, though when I receive a particularly brutal handshake a certain scene from Hot Shots[1] involuntarily leaps to mind and I tend to chuckle rather than read too much into the psyche of the shaker.

What is your opinion on the opposite? For me that's far more unsettling. I've initiated handshakes with people whose age and home country meant they didn't really have much experience of the Western "firm handshake", always the limp wrist. I don't know whether to shake it, or draw the hand to my lips as courting a princess. Which, I assume, was not one in your repertoire of "intricate hiphop style handshakes".

Jokes aside, more than one family member had felt it important to instruct me in the art of a good handshake as a matter of gentlemanly conduct from a young age, even long after I'd obviously "got it", and I distinctly recall one of my friends suddenly in his mid-20s going from a pathetic one to a really decent powergrip apparently because his boss had told him after a promotion that he ought to work on his handshake. I say this in defense of the one who "actively squeezes", as it may not be macho-signaling so much as over-correction for their past dead fish.

[1] http://youtu.be/HQmBJONo5_E?t=16m47s

Re: Hug vs. Handshake

#77

Post by claudius »

[deleted] wrote: post #74
peterwwillis wrote: post #17

Do not hug someone without asking first. Also, don't do the open-arms-moving-in-and-then-asking-for-a-hug. People who might feel uncomfortable hugging you now feel socially forced to. Ask the first time, and ask if you can hug them again in the future. If you're really feeling awkward, start out with a hand wave as you approach the person... either they'll wave back, or try to initiate a handshake/hug with you. Eithe…

[deleted]

This guy got fired for obvious sexism in the workspace, which was made visible by refusing to shake a woman’s hands on the ground that his religion forbids him to do so.

Re: Hug vs. Handshake

#78

Post by JonnieCache »

JDGM wrote: post #76
JonnieCache wrote: post #34

I'm more concerned about the strength of handshakes. I have a bias against anyone who actively squeezes my hand with anything beyond a simple, firm grasp. It comes across as macho, like you've got something to prove, and therefore untrustworthy. I'd like to point out here that I'm admitting a bias rather than expressing an opinion. EDIT: at least now I'm approaching something resembling adulthood I don't have the pro…

I think I'm basically with you on this, though when I receive a particularly brutal handshake a certain scene from Hot Shots[1] involuntarily leaps to mind and I tend to chuckle rather than read too much into the psyche of the shaker. What is your opinion on the opposite? For me that's far more unsettling. I've initiated handshakes with people whose age and home country meant they didn't really have much experience o…

>What is your opinion on the opposite?

I've only ever experienced this with peers who I know well, and I actually find there's a pleasant intimacy to it. It would definitely be weird if it happened in a formal context though.

Re: Hug vs. Handshake

#79

Post by danielrm26 »

Would you hug Hilary Clinton if you’ve met her on two or three different occasions? Of course not. And it’s the same for the female CEO of a major bank. So then, why would you hug a female work associate that you’ve only met twice?

Answer: you don’t hug Mrs. Clinton or the female CEO because you respect them too much.

Now, notice that this is how men treat ALL males.

http://danielmiessler.com/blog/on-hugs-vs-handshakes-for-fem...

Re: Hug vs. Handshake

#80

Post by JDGM »

I like to use spacing here. There's a sweet spot between hug distance and handshake distance where you can often read which the other person wants to go for and likewise telegraph to them which one you have in mind. A barely perceptible move back and shake or a gentle move in and hug, or perhaps something else entirely. Body language is your friend.

This comment originally started as an analogy to striking distance and grappling distance in a fight, but I couldn't make it read unsatirically.

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