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Female Engineers: Too Fit For The Role

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Re: Female Engineers: Too Fit For The Role

#71

Post by arrrg »

Swizec wrote: post #4

I will probably get shunned to death for asking this, but I must ask. The described behaviour of men in the article is pretty damn sexist, true. But how is it any different from how men in groups behave towards one another? Just replace all the sexist jokes with gay jokes or sissy jokes or just about any other type of jokes men direct at one another to establish pecking orders within groups. Reading this, it doesn't…

Sissy jokes are also sexist, by the way. It's a great example of how sexism can affect both men and women equally. Sissy jokes are gender policing. The implication is that being a man and being feminine is incompatible. They exclude feminine men.

All the jokes and insults you listed are extremely problematic and most certainly also deserve our attention (though that is most certainly not a valid criticism of this article, no single article has the obligation to mention every problem).

Re: Female Engineers: Too Fit For The Role

#72

Post by jiggy2011 »

arrrg wrote: post #70
jiggy2011 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They'd probably call you gay even if you weren't, whether or not you actually are is probably not that important to them. You'd also probably get made fun of more for being say Irish or Scottish than for being black. Whether or not it's "okay" it is not something you could reasonably expect to be changed for one person. I would think that really her employer should have managed her expectations better.

Using "gay" as an insult is very problematic and homophobic. Calling someone who is gay "gay" is generally not a problem. (Depending on context it obviously can be, but that's then more dependent on the context, not the word.) The implication of calling someone who isn't "gay" is that being gay is somehow bad or something to be offended about. That is as clear a homophobic statement as there can be. It is homophobic,…

Perhaps, but construction workers tend not to spend much time considering the implications of language in the way that people who are college educated might. So what you have is more a clash of the cultures than real homophobia.

The way I've always thought of the word "gay" being used in that way was not so much that it was bad to be gay (as in the sexuality) so much, but that you are associating the person with certain stereotypical gay traits such as effeminacy which would be somewhat insulting to a stereotypical macho construction worker.

Re: Female Engineers: Too Fit For The Role

#73

Post by Botono »

Swizec wrote: post #4

I will probably get shunned to death for asking this, but I must ask. The described behaviour of men in the article is pretty damn sexist, true. But how is it any different from how men in groups behave towards one another? Just replace all the sexist jokes with gay jokes or sissy jokes or just about any other type of jokes men direct at one another to establish pecking orders within groups. Reading this, it doesn't…

I don't know of any group of men in a workplace that would sing songs at random men passing by, or see a man dressed for a particular job role and ask them what they are doing there all by themselves. She was obviously treated differently than they would treat each other.

Re: Female Engineers: Too Fit For The Role

#74

Post by angersock »

kmfrk wrote: post #62
Swizec wrote: post #4

I will probably get shunned to death for asking this, but I must ask. The described behaviour of men in the article is pretty damn sexist, true. But how is it any different from how men in groups behave towards one another? Just replace all the sexist jokes with gay jokes or sissy jokes or just about any other type of jokes men direct at one another to establish pecking orders within groups. Reading this, it doesn't…

Just replace all the sexist jokes with gay jokes or sissy jokes "Just replace the sexism with homophobia! Boys will be boys!" What kind of fucking zoo do you work at?

One populated by normal, functioning human beings, I wager?

In blue-collar workplaces constant ribbing and bullshitting is usually a way of keeping low stress and friendly.

To the rest of us, consider it a form of play.

Re: Female Engineers: Too Fit For The Role

#75

Post by arrrg »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #72
arrrg wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using "gay" as an insult is very problematic and homophobic. Calling someone who is gay "gay" is generally not a problem. (Depending on context it obviously can be, but that's then more dependent on the context, not the word.) The implication of calling someone who isn't "gay" is that being gay is somehow bad or something to be offended about. That is as clear a homophobic statement as there can be. It is homophobic,…

Perhaps, but construction workers tend not to spend much time considering the implications of language in the way that people who are college educated might. So what you have is more a clash of the cultures than real homophobia. The way I've always thought of the word "gay" being used in that way was not so much that it was bad to be gay (as in the sexuality) so much, but that you are associating the person with cert…

As I already said, that's also sexist. Gender policing is not ok. (And you cannot ignore what gay usually means.)

Re: Female Engineers: Too Fit For The Role

#77

Post by onemorepassword »

coldtea wrote: post #63
onemorepassword wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just replace all the sexist jokes with gay jokes or sissy jokes or just about any other type of jokes men direct at one another to establish pecking orders within groups. You may want to consider hanging out with a different crowd... Also, this is not "hanging out", this is the workplace. Different standards should apply. Bullying and intimidation in the workplace is unacceptable for any reason, and in this case it…

> You may want to consider hanging out with a different crowd... And you may want to consider actually being more truthful about what you and your pals do do when you hang around. (Not to mention the irony of 5 lines below, in your same comment, using language like "gives a shit"). > Also, this is not "hanging out", this is the workplace. Different standards should apply. Only for puritan cultures, that hold a clear…

I don't give a shit about sexist and homophobic neanderthals who need to put down, intimidate and bully other people to make themselves feel better.

And no, I truthfully don't hang out with such scum.

You seem to have a very twisted idea of what normal, civilized male behavior is.

Re: Female Engineers: Too Fit For The Role

#78

Post by ivanca »

adaml_623 wrote: post #39
ivanca wrote: post #29

You are a sexually attractive woman in a place where sexually attractive women are scarce. In almost any other context you would get substancial benefits for that like more promotions, job opportunities and more invitations to events than the average woman. But we will not see you complaining about that when it happens, don't we?

You are rude, offensive, and delusional. Please try to sort out these problems before attempting to contribute to HN.

Perhaps rude and offensive. Delusional never:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/games-primates-play/2012...

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2010/07/19/the-beauty-...

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/07495978859...

Re: Female Engineers: Too Fit For The Role

#79

Post by jiggy2011 »

arrrg wrote: post #75
jiggy2011 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, but construction workers tend not to spend much time considering the implications of language in the way that people who are college educated might. So what you have is more a clash of the cultures than real homophobia. The way I've always thought of the word "gay" being used in that way was not so much that it was bad to be gay (as in the sexuality) so much, but that you are associating the person with cert…

As I already said, that's also sexist. Gender policing is not ok. (And you cannot ignore what gay usually means.)

That depends, if you are in an environment the person on the receiving end doesn't take offence and will happily give insults back then it doesn't really matter.

The difficulty is when you put people not used to that environment into it, the real issue is a conflict in expectations rather than the exact language used.

Re: Female Engineers: Too Fit For The Role

#80

Post by swombat »

UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #69
swombat wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I live here too. Maybe you live in an alternate reality. You didn't answer my question. Do you think being mentally handicapped is good?

It is neither good nor bad. Neutral. But regardless of your opinion, using it as an insult is uncalled for. Since essentially you're lumping people who already have problems in with whatever it is you're trying to insult.

I think by now we're really arguing semantics, but I would argue that I do not lump anyone in with the people I call retards.

I would never call a mentally handicapped person a "retard". To me, that would be an incredibly insulting and inappropriate thing to do. The only people I'd call retards are people who are not mentally handicapped.

Similarly, if I call someone a dick head, I do not consider that to be insulting, or even related, to physical dick heads... it's just an insulting term. If I call someone (a guy, usually) a bitch (e.g "Yo, bitch, pass me the beer"), that does not imply any connection with female dogs.

Btw, I don't see how you can argue that being mentally handicapped (which by definition means having mental issues) can be neutral. It's clearly a net negative. It doesn't mean the person is more or less good, much like missing a leg or an arm (aka physically handicapped) doesn't make the person more or less good, but it's definitely a "bad" thing.

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