Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep • Hacker News Board

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#71

Post by shpxnvz » Tue, May 14, 2013, 5:00 PM UTC

madaxe wrote: post #9

"Last night, someone told me “In California, there isn’t a conflict between being a Capitalist, and a Liberal”, with a wry grin on his face." Of course there isn't. Liberalism in its purest form (as espoused by Hayek, say) is, in effect, free market capitalism with a light but universally applicable (no "special cases", as those lead to totalitarianism) set of regulations to prevent bad actors (e.g. hey, let's put he…

"Obamacare" is not socialist, it's liberal, as a core concept of liberalism is that the state should fund things that people cannot or will not fund for themselves, like roads and healthcare.

"More doubtfully compatible with the liberal conception of equality is another measure which also gained wide support in liberal circles, namely the use of progressive taxation as a means to effect a redistribution of income in favour of the poorer classes. Since no criterion can be found by which such progression can be made to correspond to a rule which may be said to be the same for all, or which would limit the degree of extra burden on the more wealthy, it would seem that a generally progressive taxation is in conflict with the principle of equality before the law and it was in general so regarded by liberals in the nineteenth century."

- Liberalism, F. A. Hayek

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#72

Post by VMG » Tue, May 14, 2013, 5:01 PM UTC

briholt wrote: post #33

The same is true for Los Angeles. I've been in an office building while people were discussing six-figure sums like they were nothing, when outside in the alley below there were literally homeless people in a knife fight over a candy bar.

Do you think they fought because they would starve to death otherwise or because they had mental issues?

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#73

Post by ww520 » Tue, May 14, 2013, 5:06 PM UTC

beat wrote: post #49

regis wrote: post #44

One thing that I think is missing from these discussions about the homeless in SF is: many of these people do not want to be rent-paying members of society and even if there was housing for them, some might still prefer their current lifestyle. Many people still view that lifestyle choice as unacceptable because it challenges the typical goals of someone working hard for a 'better' life. I don't think the question sh…

I don't think anyone actually PREFERS to be homeless, except for a few exotics. Most of the homeless in America are that way due to either a: unfortunate economic circumstances, or b: mental illness that precludes normal social functioning.

Could it be that they don't prefer the rat race we are in and choose to live carefree?

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#74

Post by VMG » Tue, May 14, 2013, 5:06 PM UTC

noonespecial wrote: post #37

downandout wrote: post #19

This speaks to a larger problem: The world simply doesn't need many of the people born into it. Parents in the US have children for recreational purposes - child birth rates do not fluctuate with the demand for labor. These kids grow up, and many of them wind up sleeping on the streets of their chosen city or more commonly just barely living paycheck-to-paycheck, because there is no societal need for them. This bears…

You need a great number of many to create a pool large enough to get those precious few that can advance humanity enough to do all of that providing by the few. Humanity could be two people living in a grass hut finding just enough berries to eat each day, but it wouldn't be much fun.

Those "precious few" will probably not come from unfit parents who already have six children.

Broken families and lack of family planning lie at the heart of crime and poverty.

(I can already see the "eugenictler" strawman being put up in the distance)

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#75

Post by king_jester » Tue, May 14, 2013, 5:07 PM UTC

jf22 wrote: post #66

troebr wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm French living in Jersey. I have been to San Francisco, even though it's blatant when you walk here, everywhere in the US I have that feeling that the poor are really forgotten. And they live in third-world country conditions. In France, the average rich is not as rich, and it's probably a lot harder to become successful and wealthy than here; but the poor are not left behind as much. It feels more like a society…

"third-world country conditions" No. Even a porta potty cleaned infrequently is more sanitary than the conditions in the third world. There won't be a cholera outbreak. Food is available and nobody is going to starve to death. Heck, a simple clean water fountain in some third world countries can improve the lives of an entire village. Even in the most horrible cities in america there are dozens of sources of free wat…

> There won't be a cholera outbreak. Food is available and nobody is going to starve to death.

None of these really reflect how poor communities in the US are. Food insecurity is a real thing that affects a good number of households and individuals. Access to adequate medical care, including vaccinations, is difficult. Health and water conditions can vary greatly and may be unsanitary.

I agree that saying the US is like a third world is overblown, but we aren't exactly a shining beacon of care for all of the people that exist in our society.

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#76

Post by brown9-2 » Tue, May 14, 2013, 5:07 PM UTC

jiggy2011 wrote: post #58

beat wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income_guarantee The solution is simple. You simply give every adult citizen enough money every year to insure that they can afford food, shelter, and other basic needs. Give it to everyone, rich or poor, same amount. BAM! No more poverty, except in self-inflicted cases (drug addiction, for example), or things like severe and very expensive illness (which are covered by other means)…

But then wouldn't businesses who sell a lot of goods to people on the minimum income just put their prices up to force the gov to increase the minimum income at above inflation rates every year? You also still have the problem of people like drug addicts who spend all of their minimum income on drugs/drink/gambling and are still left homeless.

I would imagine the smartest way to implement such a thing would be to index the amount of money to a basket of goods, much like the way in which inflation is calculated.

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#77

Post by spartango » Tue, May 14, 2013, 5:09 PM UTC

madaxe wrote: post #9

"Last night, someone told me “In California, there isn’t a conflict between being a Capitalist, and a Liberal”, with a wry grin on his face." Of course there isn't. Liberalism in its purest form (as espoused by Hayek, say) is, in effect, free market capitalism with a light but universally applicable (no "special cases", as those lead to totalitarianism) set of regulations to prevent bad actors (e.g. hey, let's put he…

Honestly, who cares what it's called and how it falls into other categories? I think by fighting over what terms to use, we're missing the forest for the trees.

In living in the SV sandbox/bubble, it seems we forget about some of our global compassion. Nobody says we need to be 100% charitable in our actions, or follow some strict socialist regimen, but I think it's useful to acknowledge that we do overlook some of the problems at our doorstep. If we cared, we could definitely create solutions to some of them, and some of those solutions might even be profitable.

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#78

Post by oblique63 » Tue, May 14, 2013, 5:10 PM UTC

downandout wrote: post #35

jarjoura wrote: post #32

There is a disparity between rich and poor in this country, sure, but come on. Most of the homeless in SF actually want to be on the streets. So many of them are young and it used to make me sad but I have just learned to accept it. I always make a point to package up leftovers and hand them out. I'll even reach into my wallet and hand out a few dollars too. If there were more I could do though, I would be more than…

Most of the homeless in SF actually want to be on the streets. That is perhaps the most ignorant sentence I have ever read on HN. Most homeless people don't have a choice. If they do have a choice, the fact that they choose to live on the streets likely speaks to the horrific situation they would face at their home. I can assure you that no one wants to be homeless.

Seriously. Comments like that are the reason I try to frequent HN less often. I grew up in the mission in SF, but that was when it was still a 'ghetto' that nobody wanted to set foot in (I still have a lot of friends that are paranoid about it), and as you might assume from that, my family wasn't ever that financially well off either. So seeing things like this just makes me cringe at how disconnected and insensitive this newer wave of (for the lack of a better term) 'more fortunate' people are.

Being able to simultaneously look at the absurd rent prices in SF, and then interpret the homelessness problem as a 'choice' is some serious obliviousness, if not an all-out exercise in orwellian double-think. I know it's a bit of a popular 'thing' amongst a certain subculture in the Haight (hell some of my friends have done that), but that's been around for ages, and I'd hardly call that culture a majority...

The original article pretty much got it right: people here like living in bubbles.

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#79

Post by VMG » Tue, May 14, 2013, 5:11 PM UTC

jiggy2011 wrote: post #70

VMG wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The solution is simple. You simply give every adult citizen enough money every year to insure that they can afford food, shelter, and other basic needs. Give it to everyone, rich or poor, same amount. BAM! You left out the part where the money comes from. Your idea is fine and dandy, but I doubt you are currently implementing it yourself by spending your own money. The idea depends on everybody being forced to pay.…

Those same arguments could be made against welfare to an extent. The advantage of this system is that it would be simpler and therefor cheaper to administer and possibly harder to game.

The fundamental problem is separating the cheaters from those who really deserve help.

In a system where the individual can decide where to put the money, everybody can decide who is deserving of help.

If you mandate wealth redistribution, you need to create a complex ruleset that decides who is eligible. The rules are established by the ineffective and opaque processes of politics and government.

The resulting system is more complex, more expensive and easier to game.

Re: Come here and work on hard problems – except the ones on our doorstep

#80

Post by josephhardin » Tue, May 14, 2013, 5:13 PM UTC

ajross wrote: post #47

bearmf wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of people sleeping on park benches in Europe, especially in large cities like London and Paris.

Now, I'm sure this is a difficult thing to measure, and there's lots of room for legitimate argument. Nonetheless Wikipedia tells me that 248 Londoners "sleep rough each night", where 3-5000 of San Francisco's homeless population "refuse shelter". That's a full order of magnitude difference even ignoring the fact that London's population is several times that of SF. And again, it gets to the safety net argument. It's…

248? In Helsinki I think I saw more than that passed out on a single tram ride. Helsinki had far more homeless than any big US city I've ever been to(at the very least they were far more visible). I also had more negative experiences with aggressive homeless there than I have had here. I forget the tram line, but it was the one that goes from University of Helsinki to Tooloo.