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After 25 years in jail, the Internet blew my mind

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Re: After 25 years in jail, the Internet blew my mind

#71

Post by tokenadult »

He writes as a man who is grateful to enjoy the freedom of outside life again. I posted the article to my Facebook wall with the tagline, "He really appreciates what he was missing."

Since the big comment subthread here is about the author's criminal history and what that means to society, I should probably comment on that issue too. I've lived in east Asia, and once upon a time, I thought that there was a generation of Americans who had all heard of the Opium Wars and understood the historical context of why several countries in that part of the world want nothing to do with their common people having access to most drugs. Harsh drug laws in some places--including the death penalty for what seems to Americans like dealing rather small amounts of drugs--is a reaction to a historical experience in which whole countries were ruined by foreign drug dealers (British imperialists trading in opium) and their local agents. I'm not personally in favor of the death penalty for all drug dealers, but I can empathize with (for example) a parent of a child who started using drugs who would want the child's dealer in prison for the rest of his life or even dead.

Of course we want to look to other countries for historical examples too. In Europe, where the historical experience was different, there has been some decriminalization, but very little "legalization" of drugs.

http://www.holland.com/us/tourism/article/dutch-drug-policy....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/03/dutch-dr...

http://www.virgin.com/richard-branson/time-to-end-the-war-on...

I am tentatively convinced that a national drug policy that focuses mostly on keeping users from harming other people and on helping users to stop using is perhaps a better national drug policy than harsh criminal penalties for dealing in drugs--in countries that have already established a drug-using culture. But east Asia, with very harsh drug laws and a culture of limited use, is doing well in human progress,

http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2012/08/15/singapore...

http://www.economist.com/news/21566430-where-be-born-2013-lo...

so that policy choice has to be put in the mix too in evaluating what will work well as the United State reforms a national drug policy that everyone seems to decry.

Re: After 25 years in jail, the Internet blew my mind

#72

Post by exodust »

soheil wrote: post #39

Must watch video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=w...

It's a good talk. He's very confident, has a good message, and really doesn't like the CCA. His argument seems spot on, but changing a 750 billion dollar won't be easy. He needs a few more incarcerated "disciples" to come good after following his program or methods, to learn behind bars and emerge from prison all knowing. Proof other than his own story is what's needed, because not all education is equal. You can call a dusty old library with crappy books "education" and get the green tick at "prison education audit time".

Re: After 25 years in jail, the Internet blew my mind

#73

Post by ef4 »

mike_esspe wrote: post #53
WA wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make it sound like your children don't have a choice whether to take drugs or not. You could argue similarly by replacing drugs with anything (legal) that could harm your children. For example, do you blame motorcycle vendors for being responsible for deaths and hardship among the families of motorcyclists? Drugs and motorcycles are certainly different, but it's a bit too easy to blame drug traffickers or dealers…

In modern society it is implied, that person taking drugs is losing their free will and requires guardianship. Whether it is scientifically correct is a question.

> In modern society it is implied, that person taking drugs is losing their free will

If that was really true, we wouldn't hold them criminally responsible for their actions.

Re: After 25 years in jail, the Internet blew my mind

#75

Post by l33tbro »

mardix wrote: post #6

This article has been posted so many times now... c'mon people...

OP here. Honestly, hadn't seen it posted. On HN multiple times per day. Very surprised at the traction of the article, given it's a month old story. Whatever, it's a great narrative for people.

Re: After 25 years in jail, the Internet blew my mind

#76

Post by jordanbaucke »

goggles99 wrote: post #61
asveikau wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole time reading this article, I thought, sounds good, but having spent 25 years in jail he must have done something pretty bad. Then I read that Wikipedia article and it turns out he was caught selling cocaine in his 20s... Man, say whatever you want for drugs being bad, but that's kind of a BS reason to rob someone of their youth like that. For 25 years I thought maybe he'd killed a guy.

This is a problem mentality. Obviously the sentence was not harsh enough, because he still ran a huge cocaine smuggling operation. I wonder if the penalty for running a cocaine operation was death (like in lowest crime rate Singapore) if he still would have done it? If he did, Id bet the next person would not have. It is impossible to predict the murders and overdose deaths that a drug kingpin ultimately causes. Also…

I agree. Sentencing is the problem! All those "ghetto kids" whom are born into destitute poverty (where the only people they're familiar with whom seem to have any wealth are the drug dealers) would be discouraged from selling drugs too if the punishments where higher!

Re: After 25 years in jail, the Internet blew my mind

#77

Post by AnthonyMouse »

jeffdavis wrote: post #31
SeoxyS wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, but that also depends on the offender. In a way, you could make an argument that prison should not have timed sentences, but rather that it should be "you stay until it is deemed that you will not offend again, and that you can be a productive member of society." After all the word "corrections" implies that something should be corrected, not that somebody should be punished.

It's partially deterrent and partially corrections. If it were only for corrections, then it would cause all kinds of problems. The most obvious one is that you get one "free crime" to commit. There's also a fairness (and rule-of-law) argument: if two people steal $100 each, why would one person be let out earlier?

>There's also a fairness (and rule-of-law) argument: if two people steal $100 each, why would one person be let out earlier?

If that's your justification then the horse has already left the barn, developed space travel and colonized Mars. Look at the number of factors that go into sentencing -- or just the definition of the crime, like what was stolen (distinct from its market value) and how (e.g. on a computer vs. in person vs. in a conspiracy with accomplices), then there is a lot of flexibility for the sentence itself (most sentences are "up to" X penalty) with a whole list of mitigating and exacerbating circumstances in the sentencing guidelines, subsequent parole for good behavior in prison, etc. etc.

Re: After 25 years in jail, the Internet blew my mind

#78

Post by coldtea »

ed209 wrote: post #42
asveikau wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what the right punishment is for that, but the original sentence of 45 years seems too steep. As does 25.

until you see the many lives destroyed by drugs. from mothers abandoning their children, to ending up homeless and alone, to deaths and murders. Sure he's just one cog in a giant machine, but he's also responsible for death and hardship as a result of the drugs he moved. Society in general also carries some of the responsibility, as do those involved in his upbringing. But I know that if my child came to any harm as…

>until you see the many lives destroyed by drugs. from mothers abandoning their children, to ending up homeless and alone, to deaths and murders.

Until you realize that most of those destroyed lives are because drugs are illegal in the first place, which makes them:

1) expensive, 2) reason to get fired, 3) of unknown quality and ratios (hence overdosing), 4) related to gangs and violent crime, etc etc.

Re: After 25 years in jail, the Internet blew my mind

#79

Post by mseebach »

tokenadult wrote: post #71

He writes as a man who is grateful to enjoy the freedom of outside life again. I posted the article to my Facebook wall with the tagline, "He really appreciates what he was missing." Since the big comment subthread here is about the author's criminal history and what that means to society, I should probably comment on that issue too. I've lived in east Asia, and once upon a time, I thought that there was a generation…

I was under the impression that the Opium Wars were not primarily about opium, but rather imperialism. The British wanted control, so did the Chinese. If it hadn't been opium, it would have been, god knows what, silk or pepper.

> I can empathize with (for example) a parent of a child who started using drugs would want the child's dealer in prison for the rest of his life or even dead.

I can empathize too, but this runs counter to the idea of justice. I'd want to have the hand chopped off the guy who stole my bicycle (actually, I'd want to do it myself), but justice must separate the passion of the victim from an objective measure of the damage the crime did to society.

Re: After 25 years in jail, the Internet blew my mind

#80

Post by AnthonyMouse »

goggles99 wrote: post #61
asveikau wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole time reading this article, I thought, sounds good, but having spent 25 years in jail he must have done something pretty bad. Then I read that Wikipedia article and it turns out he was caught selling cocaine in his 20s... Man, say whatever you want for drugs being bad, but that's kind of a BS reason to rob someone of their youth like that. For 25 years I thought maybe he'd killed a guy.

This is a problem mentality. Obviously the sentence was not harsh enough, because he still ran a huge cocaine smuggling operation. I wonder if the penalty for running a cocaine operation was death (like in lowest crime rate Singapore) if he still would have done it? If he did, Id bet the next person would not have. It is impossible to predict the murders and overdose deaths that a drug kingpin ultimately causes. Also…

>His benefit outweighed the risk in his mind.

Why are you assuming he made a conscious decision? Why are you assuming he even knew what the penalties were, or contemplated being convicted, before taking on the endeavor?

>Look at a country like Singapore, they have the lowest crime rates on the earth. Crime has fallen every year for the last 20 years.

Crime rates have been on a gradual decline world-wide over the same period. Moreover, this is a good overview of the research into the cause of the decline: http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/01/lead-crime-li...

TL;DR: It wasn't "tough on crime," it was phasing out leaded gasoline which had been causing neurological damage to children on a mass scale that was causing them to be irrational and violent as young adults.

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