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How much sleep do we really need to work productively?

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Re: How much sleep do we really need to work productively?

#71

Post by diminoten »

VLM wrote: post #31

You can have a lot of fun with this story by search and replace with "drink glasses of water" and/or "sex per week". Its the exact same story, complete with anecdotes about extremes, unusual people with unusual requirements, conformist people terrified they're out of conformity in the deep decimal places, rebels proud of their rebellion in the deep decimal places, plenty of misguided residual puritanism, stories abou…

This philosophy assumes easy access to a doctor, and ignores the possibility of any illness.

Furthermore, some people are curious about their body, and wish to understand better activities which consume about a third of their lifetime. I'm one of those people, and even if I get literally no useful information out of reading an article such as this, I am still happy to have read it and to have thought about it, simply because it satiates my desire to learn more about myself.

Re: How much sleep do we really need to work productively?

#72

Post by randallsquared »

chimeracoder wrote: post #54
criley wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you're a person who reads the description of ADD and says that it sounds like you, maybe a lot. I feel this unfairly divides ADD between "people who think they have" and "people who have" but in my experience this is a horrible line to draw. Many doctors will listen for a stock phrase and hand out a one page questionnaire and diagnose you with adult on-set ADD on the spot. Bam, then you "have" it, doctor verifie…

Yes, there are bad doctors, and there are cursory or improper diagnoses, but that does not make the valid diagnoses any less valid, or the invalid diagnoses any more valid. All doctors, from radiologists to orthopedic surgeons, are told not to self-diagnose, and psychiatric conditions are the easiest to improperly self-diagnose, even for trained professionals (which most people on HN are not). On top of that, ADHD is…

> Yes, there are bad doctors, and there are cursory or improper diagnoses, but that does not make the valid diagnoses any less valid, or the invalid diagnoses any more valid.

It calls into question, somewhat, whether there actually are any valid diagnoses, if a disease is well-known to be very commonly diagnosed improperly.

Re: How much sleep do we really need to work productively?

#73

Post by GHFigs »

btilly wrote: post #58
criley wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you're a person who reads the description of ADD and says that it sounds like you, maybe a lot. I feel this unfairly divides ADD between "people who think they have" and "people who have" but in my experience this is a horrible line to draw. Many doctors will listen for a stock phrase and hand out a one page questionnaire and diagnose you with adult on-set ADD on the spot. Bam, then you "have" it, doctor verifie…

The division here is between the underlying causes of the distractibility. And that's a pretty important distinction to make. Many things can cause distractibility, from sleep deprivation to thyroid disorders. ADD/ADHD is only one of them. The effective treatment for any of these will not help the others. That is why the DSM-IV includes as a diagnostic criteria that you have to screen for other possible causes of the…

The effective treatment for any of these will not help the others.

This isn't entirely true. A person that isn't getting enough sleep can "fix" the problem with ADD medications, and thus maintain the erroneous belief that they have ADD and therefore require that medication. How often that happens is debatable, but it is one of the (many) things that lead to over-diagnosis.

Re: How much sleep do we really need to work productively?

#74

Post by VLM »

diminoten wrote: post #71
VLM wrote: post #31

You can have a lot of fun with this story by search and replace with "drink glasses of water" and/or "sex per week". Its the exact same story, complete with anecdotes about extremes, unusual people with unusual requirements, conformist people terrified they're out of conformity in the deep decimal places, rebels proud of their rebellion in the deep decimal places, plenty of misguided residual puritanism, stories abou…

This philosophy assumes easy access to a doctor, and ignores the possibility of any illness. Furthermore, some people are curious about their body, and wish to understand better activities which consume about a third of their lifetime. I'm one of those people, and even if I get literally no useful information out of reading an article such as this, I am still happy to have read it and to have thought about it, simply…

If the whole point is that search and replace feature results in the same infotainment article for sleep, sex, drinking water, exercise, diet, probably a whole bunch of other activities, you may not have objectively learned anything about yourself as you claim. Then again if the subjective experience was fun for you, clearly it doesn't hurt anyone else so go for it, the standard social libertarian thing applies.

Re: How much sleep do we really need to work productively?

#75

Post by wikyd »

fakeer wrote: post #57
JakeSc wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But even if you sleep 10 hours from 2am to 12 in the afternoon, it's far from enough or healthy. Why? Are you suggesting that the later in the day I fall asleep, the less healthy the sleep becomes?

Yes. That's what I am suggesting. Look, I am not a doctor or neuro something and what I have said above in that statement is based upon my experience, other's and articles I've read. Besides, it's a well known fact that you need to rest your body and mind by sleeping at night at the right time and not just anytime.

This is not a well-known fact. What makes it the "right" time besides your opinion?

Re: How much sleep do we really need to work productively?

#77

Post by Afton »

Xcelerate wrote: post #69
mgla wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you considered the possibility that you're suffering from sleep apnea?

I don't think I am. I'm in shape (was D1 runner) and 22. Who knows though.

While excess weight is an contributing cause, lots of underweight and normal weight people have sleep apnea. Much of it is just based on your jaw morphology.

Source: I am typically underweight, and I have sleep apnea.

Re: How much sleep do we really need to work productively?

#79

Post by _delirium »

chimeracoder wrote: post #54
criley wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you're a person who reads the description of ADD and says that it sounds like you, maybe a lot. I feel this unfairly divides ADD between "people who think they have" and "people who have" but in my experience this is a horrible line to draw. Many doctors will listen for a stock phrase and hand out a one page questionnaire and diagnose you with adult on-set ADD on the spot. Bam, then you "have" it, doctor verifie…

Yes, there are bad doctors, and there are cursory or improper diagnoses, but that does not make the valid diagnoses any less valid, or the invalid diagnoses any more valid. All doctors, from radiologists to orthopedic surgeons, are told not to self-diagnose, and psychiatric conditions are the easiest to improperly self-diagnose, even for trained professionals (which most people on HN are not). On top of that, ADHD is…

> That said, the entire claim which precipitated this discussion - that ADHD is somehow related to sleep deprivation - is completely preposterous.

There's quite a bit of research on the subject, and researchers don't generally consider a relationship preposterous. It's reasonably well established that sleep disturbances and sleep deprivation can at least exacerbate the symptoms of ADHD. Some research suggests that they may also be a risk factor for developing the condition in some cases, or alternately (depending on unresolved questions about etiology) that a differential diagnosis is needed to distinguish non-sleep-related ADHD from symptoms related to sleep disorders. The diagnoses do empirically seem to co-occur quite frequently, which is one factor driving the research, but the mechanisms aren't well understood.

Nature published a short review of the (very large) literature on the subject last year: J. Cassof et al., Sleep patterns and the risk for ADHD: a review, Nature 2012(4): 73-80.

Re: How much sleep do we really need to work productively?

#80

Post by TallGuyShort »

Xcelerate wrote: post #69
mgla wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you considered the possibility that you're suffering from sleep apnea?

I don't think I am. I'm in shape (was D1 runner) and 22. Who knows though.

I've known people who have had it, and were in their twenties and in excellent physical shape.
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