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"Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

discuss.emberjs.com

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Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#71
It really is not easy. I really want to like Ember, I really do. But I also gave up after being unable to wrap my head around it.

I read the official documentation, which is well written, but does not cover the big picture needed to tie everything together.

I watched the peepcode screencast, which is great, even if for me the pace could have been a bit faster. After that I was convinced I wanted to give Ember a shot.

I failed very early on, wanting to accomplish two things that I guess should be very common. But neither one is documented anywhere. And while I found a few answers on SO, those usually used functions that were either not documented at all or where the documented said they were meant for something else entirely.

The first thing was integration with server side authentication. The foundation was a pretty standard rails app that handled authentication. I wanted access to the current_user from the Ember App.

The second thing was loading a few models together with the initial page in order to save additional calls to the server. I do not even know where to look for documentation on how to accomplish this.

It probably does not help that Ember Data is a seperate project. Ember without Ember Data is no way near as useful as the combination of both.

Again, I really want to like Ember. I love Yehuda's work on other projects and some Ember features like data binding look awesome.

But trying to use Ember to write a new app from scratch that deviates slightly from basic CRUD gives me a headache.

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#73
post #64

People rave about node.js and kock ruby. People rave about ember and knock backbone. But when it comes to building apps, the tried and true approaches are the best I've found. There is plenty of documentation online and that really helps when you are starting out. When I gave ember a whirl, the lack of documentation, forums, or just anyone using it -- outside a core group -- was very disturbing.

I just gave Ember a whirl the other day because I wanted to fiddle around with a prototype for an experimental interface. I'd had a little exposure to Ember and related projects before, and generally liked it, but hadn't really set it up entirely from scratch.

It was... amazingly annoying. And I don't just mean the fact that I needed to search around for a box that had an appropriate version of Ruby installed to build the ember-data project from source (heaven forbid that they offer a download of JavaScript, let alone a single package of all the libraries you're going to want to use for your project -- but it's okay, I'll forgive you, you're a release candidate). I mean the stuff where I wanted to load a simple skeletal data structure in JavaScript from JSON with a FixtureAdapter before attaching it to a real backend, and the documentation was all "sure, you can totally use a non-REST store!" -- http://emberjs.com/guides/models/defining-a-store/ -- but wasn't really strong on the How. Fortunately, StackOverflow came to my rescue: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/15301918/how-do-you-set-t...

But it was a negative experience. If I hadn't been exposed to a taste of its power and elegance before, I would have probably given up.

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#76

Well, programming is not always easy. I felt that kind of frustation when I tried for the first time almost every library/programming language that I'd worked with, either with java, backbone, coldfusion, rails... Trying and researching things is always part of the process, we can't run away from that.

It probably takes a huge amount of work to make something easy to use.

Look at Go.

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#77

Had a similar experience, then tried AngularJS. Couldn't be happier :) http://angularjs.org

Exactly the same here. I really wanted to like Ember, since I liked the documentation and read a bit about how the project started and how it works on a higher level. However, since I couldn't get through the Get Started tutorial, I gave up and went into angular instead, and I haven't looked back. I'd like to give Ember a second chance, if only so I could be the only person on the internet that has tried both angular…

I reviewed both angular and ember for integration with a rails app for my job recently: https://github.com/et/ember_vs_angular To my dismay, we went with angular. In retrospect, after playing with the framework, I'm fairly pleased with the choice.

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#78

Trek is making a huge mistake IMHO. As a developer I can think of nothing more helpful than to get a "steam-of-consciousness" excerpt from our users. This is something no analytics package can tell you, if you want to make your "product" easy to use then this is the exact feedback you need. Delverworld was outlining the various pitfalls of getting started with ember.js and a core contributor shrugs it off because he…

I have admitted that, publicly, very often, in other topics on discuss.emberjs.com, on websites, on twitter, on videos, and elsewhere. It's no secret I'd like to improve the documentation for Ember.js and I'm already well aware of the places that people are facing difficulty right now.

There's work, if people spent a moment reading the top topics in the forum, on a getting started guide with a direct call for feedback http://discuss.emberjs.com/t/todomvc-based-getting-started-g...

I've been extremely vocal in soliciting actionable feedback on that. I'd like to help!

Discourse isn't for making places like hackernews, where a playful, sometimes discouraging culture of dickitude is acceptable and encouraged. The goal of Discourse (a "Civilized Discourse Construction Kit") and our use of it is to create a place where civil discussion can take place to improve Ember.js as a framework.

Delvarworld's tone strayed into territory I don't think remains civil because of his use of sarcasm:

"are you serious?"

"oh god this is going to be fun, isn't it?"

"by the awful grace of god"

"3 more results linking to the first dead article! FANTASTIC!"

And so I signaled that I empathize with his frustrations (because I do) but I can't participate in that discussion because it violates community norms I'd like to uphold. If he'd like to rephrase his topic, I'd be glad to help.

Ego and pretension have nothing to do with it. Contributing to OSS is something I make a personal decision to do with my time. I wish I had an infinite amount of time, but I don't. Most people associate me with Ember.js, but I'm very active elsewhere. Did you know I regularly run through all the TodoMVC examples looking for bugs https://twitter.com/trek/status/313015370728501248 ? Most people don't, because it's just something I quietly do. Less quietly now, I suppose.

In addition to working on OSS, I'd love to maybe find a nice boy to date (https://github.com/trek/lonely_coder), see my friends, visit my aging, ailing parents more often, maybe catch a moving once in a while, or eat a meal I'd don't grab on the go running from one obligation to another.

Like most OSS contributors, this isn't my job. It doesn't pay my bills or put food in my belly. I do it because I'd like to improve the tools I work with and share those improvements with the larger tech community. In the finite time I can offer, I have to make decisions about where to expend energy. I choose to do that in places where I can have the most impact. I don't feel that I can be helpful when people approach with sarcasm. Rather than remaining silent, I let people know I'm happy to engage when we trend towards civility.

Re: "Getting started with Ember.Js is easy." - No it isn't

#80
I totally agree that our getting started story could be much better. In fact, it's our primary focus as we move towards 1.0.

Specifically:

* We're actively working on a Getting Started Guide with live examples that walks the user through building a new application from scratch.

* We're continuing to improve our guides to talk through areas that might be confusing for new developers, like the naming conventions[1] we use in Ember

* Ember 1.0 will feature the return of the Starter Kit[2], which directly addresses the concerns by the OP. We removed it temporarily to bring it up to date with the most recent idioms, but it will be coming back very soon[2]. This was a hard decision that sucked, but leaving around an out of date starter kit seemed worse than removing it.

I take this concern very seriously, and hope that people will continue to give us a look as we improve the experience for new users.

[1] http://emberjs.com/guides/concepts/naming-conventions/ [2] https://github.com/emberjs/starter-kit

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