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Physicists Say They Have Found A Higgs Boson

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Re: Physicists Say They Have Found A Higgs Boson

#71

A physicist friend of mine said, half jokingly, that with that much money poured into the project they had no other option but to find that damn boson.

Sort of related question, which may sound a bit rubbish since I don't really know the physics or their scientific method at that scale, but were they doing enough experiments that they'd have eventually said it couldn't exist if they never found it for some amount of time? Or was it always something that could only be proven, not disproven?

I don't have a direct link, and this is a little old, but it looks good: http://www.quantumdiaries.org/2012/07/04/new-baby-boson-is-b...

Look carefully at this graph: http://www.quantumdiaries.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Hig...

This graph shows how many pairs of photons were crated, classified by the energy.

There are a lot of ways to create a pair of photons, so there is a lot of background noise even if the Higgs Boson doesn't exist. This is roughly the dotted line (it's very difficult to see, because it's almost covered with the red line).

The black points are the actual measurements. They almost agree with the dotted line, except in the range of 125-130GeV where there is a bump. In that energy range there are more pairs of photons created than the expected quantity. The energy of the photons is essentially equal to the mass of the HB, but there are some dispersion because of the measurements errors and some quantum effects.

The red line is a simulation of how many pairs of photons would appear if the mass of the HB were 126.5GeV. They adjusted that parameter to get the best fit. This red line has a bump near 126.5GeV that is similar to the bump that the measurements have (black dots). The dotted line is very similar, so the red line cover it everywhere except in the bump range.

There is a lot of noise, so one possibility is that the bump is only a lucky streak, so they wait until they get a 5 sigma deviation, i.e. there is only 1/2000000 chance of getting a deviation as big as that form random fluctuations and noise. (The graph is old and shows only a 4.5 sigma deviation.)

The complete analysis is more complicated, but the general idea is that if there were no HB, they would get a different signal.

Re: Physicists Say They Have Found A Higgs Boson

#72

A physicist friend of mine said, half jokingly, that with that much money poured into the project they had no other option but to find that damn boson.

Sort of related question, which may sound a bit rubbish since I don't really know the physics or their scientific method at that scale, but were they doing enough experiments that they'd have eventually said it couldn't exist if they never found it for some amount of time? Or was it always something that could only be proven, not disproven?

The scientific method applies at all scales.

While it not possible to disprove the existence, of, say, unicorns. It is possible to say "I've searched the length and breadth of Central Park, looking for unicorns with 99.9% detection probability for each square meter of the park. I found no unicorns."

Whether you find this sufficient to reasonably exclude any unicorn hypotheses is up to you and will depend upon whatever unicorn hypothesis you wish to test. If the hypothesis is that the world should be uniformly populated with unicorns once every hundred meters, then the above observation should place strong constraints on the viability of the hypothesis, as about 340 unicorns should have been observed.

In the case of the Higgs, had the signal not popped up, they would have been able to exclude any Higgs-like particle over a huge range, which includes the now-claimed value. At the present mass, with the data up till now, they would have excluded a Standard Higgs to better than 5-sigma (less than a one in a million chance that they missed it).

Want to see the one of the peaks as it forms? (you have to trust that the scientists are doing the analysis right before they make this plot)

https://twiki.cern.ch/twiki/pub/AtlasPublic/HiggsPublicResul...

Re: Physicists Say They Have Found A Higgs Boson

#73

With big science news like this, it's always best to go to the source[0] to avoid sensationalism. Of note, is the following statement which isn't getting repeated much in the mainstream news sources: " It remains an open question, however, whether this is the Higgs boson of the Standard Model of particle physics, or possibly the lightest of several bosons predicted in some theories that go beyond the Standard Model.…

At least the Oh-My-God particle has definitely been found:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oh-My-God_particle

Re: Physicists Say They Have Found A Higgs Boson

#74
post #4

The physics involved is fascinating, although a true appreciation of what a Higgs Boson is would take years (i.e. most of a PhD). The organisation of such a vast data-processing task has surely brought about many discoveries in "big-data" and parallel computing that are not directly related to the discoveries in physics. Much like the research into the magnets that power the accelerator has led to new MRI machines. T…

Are there any predictions for possible daily-life-affecting spin-offs from the new physics itself, rather than just from the engineering advances made in the search? Or do the energies involved preclude any direct practical uses?

The energies themselves aren’t that high, the problem is that the energy densities are high - the Planck mass, for example, which is usually taken as the highest possible energy in particle physics beyond which we have to take gravity into account, is equivalent to a mere 21 μg.

However, ‘practical’ uses of these physics are not immediately obvious in the way special relativity is necessary to get decent GPS[0]. Nevertheless, both the engineering advances _and_ the mathematical tools invented during such research prove very useful time and time again - methodology from String Theory, for example, is used in trying to find dynamical descriptions of superconductors, which, if found, will affect daily life strongly (hopefully).

The key point to keep in mind here is that predictions about the future are rather hard and we have no idea what weird things people come up with in twenty or thirty years time, let alone a hundred years. Or could you have predicted the global cat picture viewing machine mentioned next door in 1913?

[0] And to understand why more than 3 to 4 GHz are rather impractical if you want to keep the CPU and RAM physically separated, btw.

Re: Physicists Say They Have Found A Higgs Boson

#75
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of the parameters are actually not specified by the theory, and have to be fitted by experiment. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renormalization for one of the reasons why.

I don't think that renormalization has much to do with this! :P It's enough to say that the standard model has to have some input from the real world -- mostly the masses of the particles and their mixing angles. Renormalization just makes it harder to talk about what a particle's mass "really" is; it doesn't really increase the number of parameters in the theory.

Renormalisation, however, does suggest that coupling constants[0] change with the energy level involved, which then leads to the nice idea that, given an appropriate theory, one could make all these runnings match at a certain energy and then get a grand unified theory (of the strong and electroweak force) which breaks down at lower energies and leads to our three different coupling constants of the gauge groups[1].

[0] Effectively the basic rate of things happening per particle/energy/volume of spacetime etc., originally assumed to be constant. [1] Effectively things happening faster for certain types of interactions (electromagnetic vs. weak vs. strong).

Re: Physicists Say They Have Found A Higgs Boson

#77
post #30

"The particle's existence helps confirm the theory that objects gain their size and shape when particles interact in an energy field with a key particle, the Higgs boson. The more they attract, so the theory goes, the bigger their mass will be." So does this mean that an ether really does permeate space?

The Higgs field is something like the idea of an ether, pervading all space, but it is not related to the propagation of light.

Not very similar. The problem with ether is that it fixed a preferred frame. So some objects were truly still and some objects were truly moving.

The Higgs field also permeates all objects, but the mathematical structure is different and it has no preferred frame, so there is no truly still object, all the movements are relative.

This is not a strange thing. The photons are the bosons of the electromagnetic field, that also permeates all objects and it has no preferred frame, so there is no truly still object, all the movements are relative.

And the gluons are the bosons of the strong force field with exactly the same properties.

Even the electrons have and associated field that that also permeates all objects and it has no preferred frame, so there is no truly still object, all the movements are relative. But electrons are fermions, no bosons, so some properties are different, but they have an associated field.

The same happens with the up and down quarks (and neutrinos). Each one has a associated field, with the same properties. (And the other particles too, but this is becoming too repetitive.)

The strange thing is not that the Higgs Bosons have an associated field. The strange thing is that the vacuum expectation value of the Higgs Fields is not zero.

In all the other cases (photons, electrons, ...) the vacuum expectation value is zero, so if you have an empty box, there are almost no particles there (some virtual particles appear, but in some sense they are only a few, (in another sense they are a lot, but it's better to think that they are only a few).) The important thing is that if any particle pass through the box, it will almost not bounce against any other particle (photons, electrons, ...) because it is empty.

But for the Higgs fields the vacuum expectation value is not zero! So even inside the empty box the value of the Higgs field is not zero, there is something like a background value. If any particle passes through the box, it will bounce many many many times against the background even if the box is empty. An easy way to interpret all this bouncing is to say that the particle has apparent mass.

But the Higgs field is not even, it has bumps, and those bumps are the Higgs Bosons. The empty box has only very few Higgs Bosons (or a lot in another technical sense). The normal particles can bounce against the background (vacuum expectation value) and we call it "mass" and they can also bounce against the bumps (bosons) and we call it "interactions".

Re: Physicists Say They Have Found A Higgs Boson

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there any predictions for possible daily-life-affecting spin-offs from the new physics itself, rather than just from the engineering advances made in the search? Or do the energies involved preclude any direct practical uses?

The energies themselves aren’t that high, the problem is that the energy densities are high - the Planck mass, for example, which is usually taken as the highest possible energy in particle physics beyond which we have to take gravity into account, is equivalent to a mere 21 μg. However, ‘practical’ uses of these physics are not immediately obvious in the way special relativity is necessary to get decent GPS[0]. Neve…

Quite so. We can't predict the future, nor can we fully predict all of the potential applications of any given theory, but we do know that not understanding the fundamentals of how things work in our Universe is certain to limit our options. Many of the most important bits of scientific knowledge in industry today were at one time just as esoteric subjects of research as the study of the Higgs field is today.

Re: Physicists Say They Have Found A Higgs Boson

#79
post #14

Radio waves were described by their co-discoverer in 1888 as "an interesting laboratory experiment" with "no useful purpose" whatsoever. - Wikipedia entry for Higgs boson

The first laser was originally described as a "solution looking for a problem", in 1960.

Re: Physicists Say They Have Found A Higgs Boson

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there any predictions for possible daily-life-affecting spin-offs from the new physics itself, rather than just from the engineering advances made in the search? Or do the energies involved preclude any direct practical uses?

The energies themselves aren’t that high, the problem is that the energy densities are high - the Planck mass, for example, which is usually taken as the highest possible energy in particle physics beyond which we have to take gravity into account, is equivalent to a mere 21 μg. However, ‘practical’ uses of these physics are not immediately obvious in the way special relativity is necessary to get decent GPS[0]. Neve…

I figured as much, I was just wondering if anyone knew of any potential predictions. As a counter-point to your examples, Tesla had lots of visions for the possible uses of his research and inventions that were years ahead of his time, many of which have come to be and some of which are still ahead of our time. So it's possible to predict possible uses for cutting-edge science, even if it's rare.
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