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A new type of piano keyboard: The Seaboard

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Re: A new type of piano keyboard: The Seaboard

#71

Post by triplesec »

colanderman wrote: post #49
jdietrich wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument doesn't hold water. The classical pipe organ, often referred to as "the king of instruments", is a synthesiser. The organ console is an electrical or pneumatic controller, with no direct connection to the pipes. Most large organs have considerable "latency", due to the distance from the console to the pipe room. Some pipes may be as much as a hundred feet away from the player, so the sound will take ove…

Most large organs have considerable "latency", You don't even need to go as far as organs to see latency. Low-pitched stringed instruments such as fretless/upright bass guitars have latency due to the mechanics of the strings themselves; e.g. jazz bass players have to account for this when playing. Most good jazz bass players do this unconsciously. Polyphonic reed instruments (e.g. harmonicas, melodicas, accordions)…

I'd never thought of that, but yes, the lowest of the high-pressure reed pipes do sound later on the Organ, and you do have to allow for that. And at the bottom of the cello. Well, remarkable the things I'd not consciously noticed all these years of playing!

Re: A new type of piano keyboard: The Seaboard

#72

Post by triplesec »

eric_h wrote: post #56
colanderman wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most large organs have considerable "latency", You don't even need to go as far as organs to see latency. Low-pitched stringed instruments such as fretless/upright bass guitars have latency due to the mechanics of the strings themselves; e.g. jazz bass players have to account for this when playing. Most good jazz bass players do this unconsciously. Polyphonic reed instruments (e.g. harmonicas, melodicas, accordions)…

"if you can feel the string in your fretting hand vibrate on a fretted instrument, you're doing it wrong." Generally the entire body of an acoustic guitar vibrates with the sound of a plucked string - the fretting hand (being the only hand currently attached to the guitar) would likely feel the vibration carrying from the body, through the neck of the guitar. It's faint, but nevertheless perceivable.

furthermore, a non-fretted instrument such as the cello, violin, fretless bass etc does give you good haptic feedback.

Re: A new type of piano keyboard: The Seaboard

#73

Post by triplesec »

michaelfeathers wrote: post #62
mullr wrote: post #11

I'm very suspicious of this and related products. The thing that's really great about all our acoustic musical instruments is that when you push on them, they push back . I don't mean this simply in the normal force sense. Consider a guitar. You've got a string which you press over a fret with your left hand. This can be naively emulated by a switch. But with the guitar, the timber and pitch change depending on how y…

I think the truth is weirder. There's actually a recurring pattern for anyone who cares to notice. Most new instruments are developed to emulate something else and they do it badly. Pipe organs were developed to emulate choirs. Now we love pipe organs precisely because of their limitations. They have a "distinctive sound." The same thing happened with the Fender Rhodes piano, the Mellotron, the Moog, the Fairlight Sy…

Up to a point. Most of your argument I love, but The pipe organ was developed to make sounds, music of its own and particularly to accompany choirs, not emulate them. It wasn't really until the Victorian era that the orchestral organ was a thing, with stops deliberately created to emulate and even replace orchestra sounds (some fairly realistically, especially with the clarinet and flute families for obvious reasons). Pipe organs are excellent at both analogue simulation and their own sounds and performance! And, no two of them are the same, most remarkably.

Re: A new type of piano keyboard: The Seaboard

#74

Post by colanderman »

smosher wrote: post #68
colanderman wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MIDI is an 8-bit protocol, operating at 31.25kbaud. False. That is but one transport option for MIDI data. USB-MIDI is another, much higher bit-rate protocol. The standard doesn't include any means of transmitting expression data other than velocity on a per-note basis. False. MIDI provides polyphonic aftertouch as a standard (i.e. not NRPN or SysEx) message type. If you try and send too much controller information o…

MIDI provides polyphonic aftertouch as a standard (i.e. not NRPN or SysEx) message type. I've read the standard and this sounds very wrong to me. If it is in the spec then I know a few synths that are broken.

Most synths don't produce that message (status 0xAx where x is the channel), but rather the more generic Channel Aftertouch message (0xDx).

(Edit: whoops, I'm bad at converting bin->hex.)

Re: A new type of piano keyboard: The Seaboard

#75

Post by smosher »

colanderman wrote: post #74
smosher wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MIDI provides polyphonic aftertouch as a standard (i.e. not NRPN or SysEx) message type. I've read the standard and this sounds very wrong to me. If it is in the spec then I know a few synths that are broken.

Most synths don't produce that message (status 0xAx where x is the channel), but rather the more generic Channel Aftertouch message (0xDx). (Edit: whoops, I'm bad at converting bin->hex.)

I was going to ask about the message details but I figured it would make me sound like an asshole, so thanks for that. I've looked for this kind of message specifically and not found it in the spec. Does it specify a note number or do something odd?

FYI, I wasn't worried about synths generating the message but rather receiving it. It's not too hard to tell whether a synth has a concept of per-note aftertouch, but I guess if it's two distinct messages it's okay to be selective about which you support.

Re: A new type of piano keyboard: The Seaboard

#76

Post by colanderman »

smosher wrote: post #75
colanderman wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most synths don't produce that message (status 0xAx where x is the channel), but rather the more generic Channel Aftertouch message (0xDx). (Edit: whoops, I'm bad at converting bin->hex.)

I was going to ask about the message details but I figured it would make me sound like an asshole, so thanks for that. I've looked for this kind of message specifically and not found it in the spec. Does it specify a note number or do something odd? FYI, I wasn't worried about synths generating the message but rather receiving it. It's not too hard to tell whether a synth has a concept of per-note aftertouch, but I g…

Yes, the message format of polyphonic aftertouch is similar to that of a note on event (= note # + pressure). Channel aftertouch includes only the pressure.

In case you're interested, I e-mailed to the address on your GitHub a copy of the message formats from the MIDI spec. I don't know where I found it (it's not freely available) or else I'd have linked it.

Re: A new type of piano keyboard: The Seaboard

#77

Post by smosher »

colanderman wrote: post #76
smosher wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was going to ask about the message details but I figured it would make me sound like an asshole, so thanks for that. I've looked for this kind of message specifically and not found it in the spec. Does it specify a note number or do something odd? FYI, I wasn't worried about synths generating the message but rather receiving it. It's not too hard to tell whether a synth has a concept of per-note aftertouch, but I g…

Yes, the message format of polyphonic aftertouch is similar to that of a note on event (= note # + pressure). Channel aftertouch includes only the pressure. In case you're interested, I e-mailed to the address on your GitHub a copy of the message formats from the MIDI spec. I don't know where I found it (it's not freely available) or else I'd have linked it.

Thanks, that may come in handy.

Re: A new type of piano keyboard: The Seaboard

#78

Post by 3rd3 »

jdietrich wrote: post #46
mullr wrote: post #11

I'm very suspicious of this and related products. The thing that's really great about all our acoustic musical instruments is that when you push on them, they push back . I don't mean this simply in the normal force sense. Consider a guitar. You've got a string which you press over a fret with your left hand. This can be naively emulated by a switch. But with the guitar, the timber and pitch change depending on how y…

Your argument doesn't hold water. The classical pipe organ, often referred to as "the king of instruments", is a synthesiser. The organ console is an electrical or pneumatic controller, with no direct connection to the pipes. Most large organs have considerable "latency", due to the distance from the console to the pipe room. Some pipes may be as much as a hundred feet away from the player, so the sound will take ove…

I think, the problem is that whenever a state-of-the-art synthesiser comes close to an expressive acoustic instrument it lives in the uncanny valley more often than not (see some YouTube videos of the Eigenharp for example). It will need a lot more sensors or better software to overcome that.

Re: A new type of piano keyboard: The Seaboard

#79

Post by unwind »

colanderman wrote: post #76
smosher wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was going to ask about the message details but I figured it would make me sound like an asshole, so thanks for that. I've looked for this kind of message specifically and not found it in the spec. Does it specify a note number or do something odd? FYI, I wasn't worried about synths generating the message but rather receiving it. It's not too hard to tell whether a synth has a concept of per-note aftertouch, but I g…

Yes, the message format of polyphonic aftertouch is similar to that of a note on event (= note # + pressure). Channel aftertouch includes only the pressure. In case you're interested, I e-mailed to the address on your GitHub a copy of the message formats from the MIDI spec. I don't know where I found it (it's not freely available) or else I'd have linked it.

This page: http://www.srm.com/qtma/davidsmidispec.html (which is quite obviously highly unofficial) mentions both 0xAx and 0xDx, calling them "Key Pressure" and "Channel Pressure", respectively. The explanation says:

Some keyboards can detect a change in pressure on each key, while they are held by the player; these keyboards can report "key pressure" over MIDI. Some keyboards may sense the overall pressure on the device, such as with a weight sensor beneath the entire keyboard. These devices can report "channel pressure."

Sounds pretty nice.

Re: A new type of piano keyboard: The Seaboard

#80

Post by banachtarski »

canibanoglu wrote: post #40
canibanoglu wrote: post #17

Seen this one a couple days ago and I honestly can't understand what the hype is all about. I've been playing the piano for 11 years now and I can't see myself or any classical pianist using this product. I'm aware that this is most likely not intended for classical musicians but still, I fail to see the reason to change the design of an instrument that's been around for a very long time in one form or another. Chang…

And just as a closing note for my own comment, I'm amazed by how hostile people can get over a comment. The fact that I don't see this used for classical music (the music that I enjoy and perform) should be free to express here. What should I have said? Oh great, cool stuff, this is the future of music? I just don't see it that way. It will be useful to some, and will have no effect on others. When I wrote the first…

Your words:

> Seen this one a couple days ago and I honestly can't understand what the hype is all about.

> Change for the sake of change is pointless.

You are saying MUCH MORE than just "I don't see this used for classical music." You were giving an actual criticism to a product for which you are not the target audience. This sort of criticism makes zero sense, which is why I recommended (more gently than others I might add) to just move along.

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