You forget one thing: The eagles aren't freaking vehicules, they are living beings with proud minds etc... The kind of "beyond elves" who are just as cool as they're willing to carry you out of trouble, and not into trouble, much like a friend who'd carry you home on his back after you've demonstrate your abilities to decorate a friends house with your own puke. I doubt they would just accept going into a suicidal mission for the sake of it.
Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)
71–80 of 213 posts
Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)
#72Earlier quoted context omitted.
Air power played a prominent role in WW1, with aerial duels frequently making headlines and German airplanes bombing London [1]. Furthermore, in the inter-war period British society was obsessed with the seemingly unstoppable power of flight [2], a concern well substantiated by the Spanish Civil War [3]. Tolkien would have been keenly aware of all this by 1939. [1] http://www.firstworldwar.com/airwar/bombers_gotha_gi…
An older brother of mine did a master's thesis on Tolkien. One thing he studied in particular is the role that Tolkien's wartime experiences had on his portrayal in the Lord of the Rings. On air power, he explained to me that in WW I airplanes had a great psychological impact, but little practical ones. You see this very clearly in the portrayal of the Nazgul in battle. Where ever you see the Nazgul go, there is grea…
"in WW I airplanes could only be used during the day"
Night fighters were used during WW1 by the UK to defend against Zeppelin and Gotha heavy bomber attacks:
Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)
#73Answer: The story is not "Rose could have saved Jack", the story is "Jack dies in the end", no matter how big or small the plank needs to be.
Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)
#74If the eagles had flown Frodo to Mordor to destroy the ring, it would NOT have been destroyed as Gollum would not be there to bring a serendipitous end to the events. It seems reasonable to imagine that Gandalf suspected more about Gollum's ultimate role than he let on, or had some idea or hunch even that things needed to play out more organically.
By the time he had walked to Mt. Doom, Frodo was exhausted, weak, malnourished, and had carried the burden of the ring for a long time. These all contributed to him succumbing to its power. If the eagles had flown him, none of those factors would be at play. Frodo could have still had the strength to overcome the ring's power and throw it into the fires.
But as the author of the OP argues, Frodo may have become even better at resisting the ring as he made his way. The proximity to Sauron could have easily been the deciding factor rather than the hardships he faced which may have even strengthened him.
Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)
#75Flying mounts are a plot failure almost every time they are brought up in fantastic stories. Most fantastic stories revolve around a perilous journey through harsh environments and monster lairs. This happens in a good number of movies such as Clash of the Titans where they journey to get the medusa's head, but return on flying pegasus. This also happens in Dungeons & Dragons (2000). Morale : Do not add flying mounts…
According to the actual myth, Pegasus was created when Perseus killed Medusa.
Of course, you can't expect Hollywood to not somehow totally fuck up even a 3000 year old story, it's kinda what they do.
Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)
#76As the article points out, it's a question of stealth versus speed, but speed is not necessarily preferable. The powers of Sauron, especially deep within his own domain, are indeed unknown. With even an hour to react, it is quite possible he would be able to conjure up something that would end up in the whole endeavor delivering the ring to him, instead of destroying it. On the other hand, the stealthiness of hobbits…
I agree, but the author's note about the Council of Elrond is extremely convincing. If Tolkien wanted to strike this plan as a possibility, he could easily have added 1-2 lines into the Council talks where they discuss (and refute) every plan they can think of. In the end there's nothing concrete in Tolkien's work that refutes the 'eagle plan' as viable. Suggesting fan-fiction and/or 'the unknown' as proof that it's…
If Tolkien wanted to strike this plan as a possibility, he could easily have added 1-2 lines into the Council talks where they discuss (and refute) every plan they can think of
"What about a catapult?" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gsgGzdEtDw
Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)
#77Oh wow! That's a lot of reasoning for making a story boring.This is far from the truly interesting analysis you can make about LotR. [spoiler alert just in case] The one I like the most is the topic of why Frodo fails. When Frodo reaches Mt Doom he finally loses himself to the power of the ring and proclaims himself its master. This is both a product of his character growth and his proximity to Sauron. In the words o…
And surely Frodo's failure implies also that the eagle plan could not have worked: it did not include Gollum
Right, but this was never discussed in the book, so as to remove the eagle plot hole. But one could see it that way. Perhaps galdolf never brought it up, because he only had a gut feeling gollum would have a role to play, and that frodo wouldn't be able to rid himself of the ring anyway...?
Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)
#78Tolkien used the eagles as his standard deus ex machina. - Dwarves + Bilbo + Gandalf stuck in burning trees with enemies around? The eagles to the rescue! - How to wrap up the Battle of the 5 armies when all is lost? The eagles are coming! - How to rescue Gandalf from Sauruman! The eagles! - How to rescue Gandalf from the top of a mountain after an epic battle with a balrog? The eagles! - How to rescue Frodo and Sam…
You are totally right but, because I love Tolkien, I'm down-voting you. It's unfair but it has to be done. Sorry.
Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)
#79Earlier quoted context omitted.
Air power played a prominent role in WW1, with aerial duels frequently making headlines and German airplanes bombing London [1]. Furthermore, in the inter-war period British society was obsessed with the seemingly unstoppable power of flight [2], a concern well substantiated by the Spanish Civil War [3]. Tolkien would have been keenly aware of all this by 1939. [1] http://www.firstworldwar.com/airwar/bombers_gotha_gi…
An older brother of mine did a master's thesis on Tolkien. One thing he studied in particular is the role that Tolkien's wartime experiences had on his portrayal in the Lord of the Rings. On air power, he explained to me that in WW I airplanes had a great psychological impact, but little practical ones. You see this very clearly in the portrayal of the Nazgul in battle. Where ever you see the Nazgul go, there is grea…
>I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, >and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough >to detect its presence. I much prefer history – true or >feigned– with its varied applicability to the thought and >experience of readers. I think that many confuse >applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the >freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed >domination of the author.
- Tolkien
Re: Could the eagles have flown Frodo into Mordor? (2000)
#80Also read: http://hpmor.com/chapter/64 (scroll to "LORD OF THE RATIONALITY")