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Code.org – Dedicated to growing computer programming education

code.org

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Re: Code.org – Dedicated to growing computer programming education

#71
If the US were to integrate coding into the school curriculum, our K-12 schools could rise to the global ranks that our university system currently occupies. But it can't just be an addon elective, it needs to be integrated across many subjects. So much of learning that's considered to be dull or boring can be made fun with programming. Write a program to simulate a ball flying through the air and aside from giving students the building blocks to make their own games/animations, they've also learned about gravity, projectile motion, and maybe even calculus. Add some wind into the mix to learn about resistance. Write a simple program that simulates cells dividing and you've got some biology and math happening. Creating some basic tones and sounds with code is a frighteningly tiny distance away from learning about music theory.

The software platform could be open sourced. Maybe even written in the programming language that students work in so students could modify it and submit patches, but also to mess with their little minds and get them thinking about self-hosting compilers.

And how much would this cost if done correctly? It's probably a terribly small figure per student over the course of their education. It may even save some money on textbooks if it's a tablet device to double as an e-reader. Maybe even more if those textbooks were open sourced and not sold at laughable prices... It's amazing how far we are behind at present.

My fear is that people assume (good or bad) that every student will come out a programmer, which is just missing the point. EE/CS degrees would be worth even more in such a world.

Re: Code.org – Dedicated to growing computer programming education

#72
post #63
post #2

The video is worth watching. I like this initiative. For some reason it brings up a lot of cynical responses, but if you really think about it, it's a pretty good thing to encourage young students to learn at least some coding.

One possible reason for the cynicism is that an increase in programmers results in an increase in competition for lower pay.

I don't think this will result in a flood of for-reals programmers any more than math or writing courses result in tons of mathematicians or writers. What it could/should result in is a future generation of people who even if they don't seriously pursue programming are at least able to hack together scripts to automate tasks that are important to them, just like they are now (hopefully) able to do enough math to get by or enough writing to communicate ideas in whatever field.

So I'm in support of the idea fully, though like barbs I think the video is fluff marketing bullshit that paints an inaccurate picture of most software development.

Re: Code.org – Dedicated to growing computer programming education

#73
Hear me out.

I was full for this 'teach kids how to code' thingy. But I think we have got this all wrong. Heck we don't have the right kind of tools to teach kids how to code. In fact I have now realized that you can't and should not teach kids how to code. You rather must teach them how to solve problems. Math was supposed to deal with that, but unfortunately that turned out to be complicated symbol manipulation if not for anything else.

My niece here in India is around 12 years old, and she is being taught C programming back in school(She is in 8th standard, or 8th grade as per US terms). No she generally comes and stays with us in the summers. So last time she came over for a month's holiday she bought her laptop with her and wanted me to teach her to program in C.

The net result is disaster. I tried everything possible. Every other trick in the trade. Even tried to start with Python first and not C. But I figured the nature of problems is something else. Kids view programming very similar to the way they see math. They find themselves manipulating things/symbols/stuff without understanding why, for what, or even why its even relevant to them. They struggle to understand where or why should you use an if/else/switch statement, or a for/do/while loop. Its difficult for them to map solution patterns to a code pattern.

Its not their fault. Its ours. Better luck trying to explain a kid why they are being asked to write a program find greatest of three numbers, find factorials, or sort numbers. To them it very clearly looks math in a different language. Its that boring math thing all over again.

Much complication starts when stuff like pointers is pushed down their throat. Or something like bit shifting. Oh and yes, they start asking things about the process of compiling, linking etc. Or why they need to put a #include at the start of a program. You can't honestly explain all that without explaining them some underlying stuff.

Beyond all this it needs to fun, which it very clearly isn't.

What kids need to be taught is how to solve problems, even if it means repairing a mechanical watch. Instead what they are being given is math in a different dose. And trust me at that age, they don't really like doing that.

And oh, by the way. Next year they are about to be taught Java. I can only imagine the horror, the way kids of going to deal with the text walls full of verbosity, API dance and the XML mess. And the last time I heard they don't really use IDE's.

One thing that I'm convinced is, after this episode due to all this trouble and trauma of having to learn this, she clearly doesn't enjoy, she will hate programming and hope she never has to deal with it again.

Because last time I talked to her, she told me she wants to be a journalist. That's how much damage 'Teach kids how to code' has done.

I'm now glad no one ever introduced me to coding when I was a kid.

Re: Code.org – Dedicated to growing computer programming education

#74
Its a little bit relevant; so I would like to mention that I created a little collaborative and opensource[0] _spanish_ directory of videos and documents to learn programming; it's called http://Programando.la/, I would also like to mention that CodeCademy haves a spanish version[1].

[0]https://github.com/AltIvan/programando.la (MIT License)

[1]http://www.codecademy.com/?locale_code=es#!/exercises/0

Re: Code.org – Dedicated to growing computer programming education

#75
post #73

Hear me out. I was full for this 'teach kids how to code' thingy. But I think we have got this all wrong. Heck we don't have the right kind of tools to teach kids how to code. In fact I have now realized that you can't and should not teach kids how to code. You rather must teach them how to solve problems. Math was supposed to deal with that, but unfortunately that turned out to be complicated symbol manipulation if…

Did you even look at the resources on Khan Academy they have? They're STUPID simple and really useful. Heck, I learned some stuff!

Re: Code.org – Dedicated to growing computer programming education

#76
True programming education is a education for hackers or in other words it is a self-education. Today our hollywoodstic world have many examples which may inspire anybody to become a hacker who can learn anything by hacking. Of course coding basics and algorithms, like arithmetic, should be at school, and many countries already have programming courses.

Re: Code.org – Dedicated to growing computer programming education

#77
post #73

Hear me out. I was full for this 'teach kids how to code' thingy. But I think we have got this all wrong. Heck we don't have the right kind of tools to teach kids how to code. In fact I have now realized that you can't and should not teach kids how to code. You rather must teach them how to solve problems. Math was supposed to deal with that, but unfortunately that turned out to be complicated symbol manipulation if…

Did you even look at the resources on Khan Academy they have? They're STUPID simple and really useful. Heck, I learned some stuff!

No Khan Academy resources are not going to help. Let me tell you why.

If you try hard, you can teach some one 'how to code' but no matter how hard you try its not possible to teach some one 'what to code'. Or in other words, 'what problems to solve using coding' else everyone would be a Nikola Tesla.

Its easy for us to solve problems like 'Parse this XML and do X', for kids its impossible to even understand this, or why this should be done. The other stuff like sorting, factorials etc math stuff is the least they are interested in. What else, 'make this cat go around the well 5 times' kind of problem that MIT scratch deals with is a little interesting to small kids, beyond this age- teenagers or kids around who are trying to prove to the world they are not kids find it intellectually insulting to even look at it.

But there are problems kids like to solve. Consider things like Lego, or Origami. Or building an amateur radio by assembling stuff. Or learning to repair a device X. Kids see adventure in such things and a very visible physical product they are working with or towards. There they see a problem, and method follows thereby. In coding you focus on the method and not the problem itself.

As programmers we think our profession is the greatest(Just like every one else). The fact is you could say the same about nearly every job out there.

Re: Code.org – Dedicated to growing computer programming education

#78
post #73

Hear me out. I was full for this 'teach kids how to code' thingy. But I think we have got this all wrong. Heck we don't have the right kind of tools to teach kids how to code. In fact I have now realized that you can't and should not teach kids how to code. You rather must teach them how to solve problems. Math was supposed to deal with that, but unfortunately that turned out to be complicated symbol manipulation if…

This is a very valuable point of view. Everyone understands that coding is only going to become more relevant to the world as a whole, and those who understand coding remember how empowered they felt when they first began to think about solving problems from the point of view of a program. It seems obvious that we should teach programming skills as early as possible to capitalize on the "magic capacity for learning" that kids have. We know this works for language. But does it work for abstract thinking?

No one remembers how they learned things at an elementary school age. I think the reality is our understanding of concepts was very muddy at that age. Thinking about abstract concepts still requires a lot of context that kids don't have. I'm not sure kids can really grok the importance of the abstract concepts in programming, and I'm not sure that importance can be taught directly. I think the ability to grok those concepts comes from a bank of general world knowledge that must be slowly built up to in adolescence.

Teaching programming early on may give kids a few worthwhile mental tools, but I'm not sure we can expect kids to get any magic "fluency" benefits the way we can with language. The risk of turning kids off programming by forcing them into it early may outweigh the benefits.

Re: Code.org – Dedicated to growing computer programming education

#79
post #69
post #2

The video is worth watching. I like this initiative. For some reason it brings up a lot of cynical responses, but if you really think about it, it's a pretty good thing to encourage young students to learn at least some coding.

I think it's a good initiative as well, but the video over-glamourises it a bit I think. Particularly the bit about how awesome the offices are. That's not what the typical programming job is like, that's what working for Dropbox is like. Plus the wishy-washy metaphor of a blank wall and opening doors, comparing it to sport, NBA players and Will.I.Am promoting it...it downplays the technical skill requirement ("you d…

While I agree with your point, Code.org could make a lot of strides with a group you did not acknowledge in your comments: those who could be programmers if they were shown the interesting parts of the field and industry, not the overly-academic side.

For as many people that might be brought into programming who can't actually do the work, the goal should be to bring in just as many if not more people who never realized they could do the work and enjoy it.

Re: Code.org – Dedicated to growing computer programming education

#80
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you even look at the resources on Khan Academy they have? They're STUPID simple and really useful. Heck, I learned some stuff!

No Khan Academy resources are not going to help. Let me tell you why. If you try hard, you can teach some one 'how to code' but no matter how hard you try its not possible to teach some one 'what to code'. Or in other words, 'what problems to solve using coding' else everyone would be a Nikola Tesla. Its easy for us to solve problems like 'Parse this XML and do X', for kids its impossible to even understand this, or…

I think your misconstruing the purpose of these initiatives.

The purpose is not to turn the kids into programmers at a young age. The purpose is to EXPOSE them to the world of programming.

You're not going to make coders out of them in elementary or middle school. But you might make them more INTERESTED in pursuing further programming education in say high school. Mission accomplished.

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