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John Carmack: Latency Mitigation Strategies

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Re: John Carmack: Latency Mitigation Strategies

#71

Post by modeless »

neverm0re wrote: post #61
modeless wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's incredibly UNFUN to use your head for movements that your eyes could otherwise have done for you. That's only a problem if your FOV is too small. With a large enough FOV and a light display there's no reason why eye and head movements shouldn't work exactly as they do in real life. The Oculus Rift has twice the angular field of view of the SU2000 in both dimensions, for 4x the subtended angular area. Edit: Oh I…

We seem to be so close to agreement here that I'll just have to vote you up and take you at your word regarding the Rift. It's entirely possible my experiences have all been unfortunate ones. I've not tried the Rift yet, though by all means I will. :)

Well, my word about the Oculus Rift is secondhand, since I haven't received mine yet. And I haven't tried the Sensics device you mentioned below; that hardware looks quite nice, so it would be quite disappointing if that level of device still wasn't good enough for a great VR experience. My opinion may change after using the Rift for a while, but given what people are saying about it I'm still optimistic :)

Re: John Carmack: Latency Mitigation Strategies

#72

Post by jiggy2011 »

dman wrote: post #70
jiggy2011 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't seem to be too small a market for sublime or textmate. What I would pay for would be an editor in the style of ST2 but with a few IDE features like being able to jump to method definitions by shift clicking etc. Basically a very lightweight IDE with good text editing features (like VIM style keyboard shortcuts). Integrate a terminal into it, but do it in a very slick way with the ability to run "recipe" type…

I dont want to gimp the user experience or implement cloud features just to get people to pay. At the same time if I am going to be spending 2-3 years to build something I would rather it be something that has a recurring income stream.

What would happen if someone doesn't pay for a month, would you somehow shut off their editor?

It would be extremely annoying for that to happen because a payment got screwed up or something.

If you make an editor so good that everyone wants to use it you can probably make enough from one off sales assuming you set the price right.

By and large when it comes to tools I want to buy them and keep them rather than lease them.

Re: John Carmack: Latency Mitigation Strategies

#73

Post by bradleyjg »

breckinloggins wrote: post #65
rmc wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One problem is that lots of people think they know what they are doing, but actually don't. You also have the problem of people choosing to use "expert mode" because it's faster, obviously .

That's why I think the default should always be "babysitter mode". Unless you give a specific set of commands, the GPU does what it does and the display does its thing. Regarding people who turn on "expert mode" even when they don't know what they're doing, that doesn't seem to be a good reason for not having it. The Mark Twain quote about censorship being like "telling a grown man he can't have a steak because a bab…

Let's say a hardware manufacturer writes a firmware that exposes calls that can degrade or destroy the device if misused, and the OS driver in turn exposes those calls to third party programs.

If a program wreaks the device, who is the end user going to blame -- the program, the driver, the manufacturer, or all three?

Re: John Carmack: Latency Mitigation Strategies

#74

Post by binarycrusader »

breckinloggins wrote: post #31

It sounds like we would benefit from GPU and display manufacturers providing a set of standard low-level control primitives so that people like Carmack who know what they are doing can really play around with the entire pipeline without having to worry about all the things the cards and the displays are doing behind their backs. For example, a GPU could have a set of standard settings with full buffering and all the…

3D graphics drivers used to have more debug options and visualization capabilities. However, unscrupulous individuals took advantage of these to cheat in video games so many vendors just ripped them out.

That's why Carmack is able to get modified versions of these drivers directly, but you and I are not.

I don't agree with that approach at all, but it's part of the reality.

Re: John Carmack: Latency Mitigation Strategies

#75

Post by dman »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #72
dman wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont want to gimp the user experience or implement cloud features just to get people to pay. At the same time if I am going to be spending 2-3 years to build something I would rather it be something that has a recurring income stream.

What would happen if someone doesn't pay for a month, would you somehow shut off their editor? It would be extremely annoying for that to happen because a payment got screwed up or something. If you make an editor so good that everyone wants to use it you can probably make enough from one off sales assuming you set the price right. By and large when it comes to tools I want to buy them and keep them rather than lease…

This is a good question - I dont think I have a good answer. I lean towards not implementing a check or stop your use. Maybe a monthly reminder for one / two months saying you have not paid. After that I would just assume that the user has stopped using my editor.

Re: John Carmack: Latency Mitigation Strategies

#76

Post by stonemetal »

breckinloggins wrote: post #65
rmc wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One problem is that lots of people think they know what they are doing, but actually don't. You also have the problem of people choosing to use "expert mode" because it's faster, obviously .

That's why I think the default should always be "babysitter mode". Unless you give a specific set of commands, the GPU does what it does and the display does its thing. Regarding people who turn on "expert mode" even when they don't know what they're doing, that doesn't seem to be a good reason for not having it. The Mark Twain quote about censorship being like "telling a grown man he can't have a steak because a bab…

Then we have a video card destroying virus, and all those options get turned off.

Re: John Carmack: Latency Mitigation Strategies

#77

Post by derefr »

bradleyjg wrote: post #73
breckinloggins wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why I think the default should always be "babysitter mode". Unless you give a specific set of commands, the GPU does what it does and the display does its thing. Regarding people who turn on "expert mode" even when they don't know what they're doing, that doesn't seem to be a good reason for not having it. The Mark Twain quote about censorship being like "telling a grown man he can't have a steak because a bab…

Let's say a hardware manufacturer writes a firmware that exposes calls that can degrade or destroy the device if misused, and the OS driver in turn exposes those calls to third party programs. If a program wreaks the device, who is the end user going to blame -- the program, the driver, the manufacturer, or all three?

Maybe the hardware manufacturer can certify and sign game binaries as being allowed to use the direct GPU API.

Re: John Carmack: Latency Mitigation Strategies

#78

Post by jiggy2011 »

dman wrote: post #75
jiggy2011 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would happen if someone doesn't pay for a month, would you somehow shut off their editor? It would be extremely annoying for that to happen because a payment got screwed up or something. If you make an editor so good that everyone wants to use it you can probably make enough from one off sales assuming you set the price right. By and large when it comes to tools I want to buy them and keep them rather than lease…

This is a good question - I dont think I have a good answer. I lean towards not implementing a check or stop your use. Maybe a monthly reminder for one / two months saying you have not paid. After that I would just assume that the user has stopped using my editor.

In order to justify a monthly payment I feel you would really have to be pushing out frequent high quality updates that just kept making it better and better.

If development started to get stagnant I would probably "forget" to renew it after my CC expired or something like that. Or at some point I'd just feel "I've given this guy enough money" and cancel even if I kept using the editor.

Re: John Carmack: Latency Mitigation Strategies

#79

Post by ZoFreX »

breckinloggins wrote: post #31

It sounds like we would benefit from GPU and display manufacturers providing a set of standard low-level control primitives so that people like Carmack who know what they are doing can really play around with the entire pipeline without having to worry about all the things the cards and the displays are doing behind their backs. For example, a GPU could have a set of standard settings with full buffering and all the…

Believe it or not but we have a similar problem with CDROM drives (let alone any drives coming after). You can't disable the cache on most, and on many that claim to, they lie. This slows down accurate ripping by a factor of 40X on some drives.

On the topic of latency I would also love to see a TV that didn't have any of the crummy video processing chips so many have these days. I don't need anything other than big screen, hdmi in, and no freakin' input latency please because I'm trying to play Rock Band and you are really messing things up! (You can admittedly at least disable this in some tvs... often by delving into hidden engineering menus. Sometimes you can't disable them at all!)

Re: John Carmack: Latency Mitigation Strategies

#80

Post by nuclear_eclipse »

ZoFreX wrote: post #79
breckinloggins wrote: post #31

It sounds like we would benefit from GPU and display manufacturers providing a set of standard low-level control primitives so that people like Carmack who know what they are doing can really play around with the entire pipeline without having to worry about all the things the cards and the displays are doing behind their backs. For example, a GPU could have a set of standard settings with full buffering and all the…

Believe it or not but we have a similar problem with CDROM drives (let alone any drives coming after). You can't disable the cache on most, and on many that claim to, they lie. This slows down accurate ripping by a factor of 40X on some drives. On the topic of latency I would also love to see a TV that didn't have any of the crummy video processing chips so many have these days. I don't need anything other than big s…

> On the topic of latency I would also love to see a TV that didn't have any of the crummy video processing chips so many have these days.

Many modern TV's have a special "game mode" setting that turns off all of this post-processing to reduce display latency. I use it with great success on my Panasonic plasma TV.

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