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The Brain is Not Computable

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Re: The Brain is Not Computable

#71
post #70
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microtubules, maybe, but that's only one of a billion things going on in there. Here's a pretty decent article: http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110615/pdf/474272a.pdf My point is that a neuron is not an equation in a connection model. It's a cell. You can't hand-wave away its identity as such or all the things that happen in cells. Even if nothing quantum is involved (and I didn't say it was... we don't know), includ…

A cell is a physical system. A physical system can either: 1) Be sufficiently large that quantum effects are irrelevant, like a billiard ball, and thus it can be modeled deterministically inside of a computer. The Tegmark paper proposes this is how the brain works. 2) Rely on quantum mechanical effects (which are non-deterministic, but can still be simulated inside a computer if you trust a computer's opinion of "ran…

> Be sufficiently large that quantum effects are irrelevant ...

This misunderstands the role of quantum theory in macroscopic systems. There is never a scale so large that quantum effects can be safely ignored. All that happens is that the specific effects, and probabilities, change.

The Heisenberg Uncertainly principle doesn't build a wall between the microscopic and macroscopic realms, it makes a probabilistic prediction about quantum events at all scales -- larger scale, lower probability.

But a macroscopic system that has a very low probability of exhibiting classic quantum behaviors as a whole, will nevertheless show quantum behaviors at some level. An easily understood example is a radioactive sample -- let's say a kilogram of uranium. The sample isn't going to behave like Schrodinger's cat, but its constituent atoms certainly will.

In one sense, the uranium is a classical mass with no contribution from quantum theory. In another sense, it's highly influenced by quantum theory -- were this not so, there would be no nuclear disintegrations.

An observer can examine the sample and, intent on demonstrating that it's a classical system, use the half-life equation to predict its future --

a' = a 2^-t/f

a = activity level at time zero

a' = activity level at time t

t = time, consistent units

f = half-life factor

-- And the outcome looks very classical, but only because the sample is large. But the timing of the next disintegration is quantum-deterministic. So the uranium is a chimera -- part classical, part quantum. This is an example that makes the point very clearly, but all classical systems (and scales) possess quantum properties, usually not so obvious as it is with a radioactive sample.

> Rely on quantum mechanical effects (which are non-deterministic, but can still be simulated inside a computer if you trust a computer's opinion of "random").

Quantum effects aren't merely random. What connects an event to quantum theory isn't its randomness, but the nature of the randomness -- its genesis. No matter how carefully I design a random number generator, I won't be able to imitate quantum entanglement unless the system is actually capable of this specific physical behavior.

Re: The Brain is Not Computable

#72
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Computability in this case is a theoretical term and doesn't really relate to levels of technology. Whether or not all physical processes are computable in the sense that they can be simulated by a turing machine is an open question, although my impression is that most folk who care to express an opinion think that they can. There's a little bit more on the Wikipedia article on the Church-Turing-Deutsch principle. ht…

Regarding computability, I wouldn't dare giving any opinion on that, and hopefully didn't in my original post. All I'm saying that once we figure how information is stored and processed, with enough technology we could replicate the process. It's not about computability- if you are making a biological duplicate I'd expect it to work the same way. Some might say this is not the "singularity", but it walks like a duck,…

As far as I can tell, there's a hidden (but not unreasonable) assumption in what you're saying; that it is possible to simulate what is going on. There are many things that cannot be computed, e.g. the Busy Beaver sequence, and it's quite possible that a simulation of true physics also involves noncomputable problems which would mean that it's not possible for a turing machine to simulate it.

I like this blog's http://michaelnielsen.org/blog/interesting-problems-the-chur... take on it:

"Yet our ease with the CTD Principle is an ease brought by familiarity. One hundred years ago the statement would have been far more surprising, and, I suggest, even shocking to many people.

Viewed from the right angle, the CTD Principle still is shocking. All we have to do is look at it anew. How odd that there is a single physical system – albeit, an idealized system, with unbounded memory – which can be used to simulate any other system in the Universe!"

You say "once we figure how information is stored and processed", but how do you know that what is going on in the brain is just a matter of storing and processing information in a way that can be mimicked by a turing machine?

Re: The Brain is Not Computable

#73
post #70
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microtubules, maybe, but that's only one of a billion things going on in there. Here's a pretty decent article: http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110615/pdf/474272a.pdf My point is that a neuron is not an equation in a connection model. It's a cell. You can't hand-wave away its identity as such or all the things that happen in cells. Even if nothing quantum is involved (and I didn't say it was... we don't know), includ…

A cell is a physical system. A physical system can either: 1) Be sufficiently large that quantum effects are irrelevant, like a billiard ball, and thus it can be modeled deterministically inside of a computer. The Tegmark paper proposes this is how the brain works. 2) Rely on quantum mechanical effects (which are non-deterministic, but can still be simulated inside a computer if you trust a computer's opinion of "ran…

I agree somewhat. I would not be willing to say impossible, but I am also not convinced it's possible. I would like to see people try. But it could be impossible for a discrete classical digital computer. It's a distinct possibility, and without "magic."

I think what I was getting at was this: I'd take the Kurzweil crowd more seriously if I saw them really engaging seriously with the depth and breadth of biology... if I saw them talking about the sorts of things I was talking about seriously instead of hand-waving them away.

I get the impression (I'm knowledgeable in biology BTW, and a programmer) that they are making the frequent programmer mistake of failing to have respect for the problem domain they are entering. A similar error often occurs in creative product development. In this case you have a software effort to subsume/encapsulate an informal industrial process that is approximately five billion years old. There are lots of things going on that we don't understand yet, and that will not yield to a cavalier, dismissive approach.

Re: The Brain is Not Computable

#74
post #67
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I didn't realize anyone had worked out the level at which quantum mechanics decoheres to Newtonian mechanics. Well, yes, of course -- the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle is the border between them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle Equation: 𝝈x 𝝈p >= ℏ/2 I emphasize the "border" isn't a like a solid barrier, it's more a statement about probability. Also, everyone should realize that the relation…

I was thinking about Schrodinger's cat. Quantum Decoherence and Consciousness are two phenomena not yet(?) explained by science, so it's natural to wonder if they're related to each other.

To clear things up, "Schrodinger's cat" was an attempt to show the absurdity of the current best interpretation of quantum mechanics (it _is_ absurd, but it still models reality to the best of our knowledge). It was never intended to be an actual experiment, nor would it actually work.

Re: The Brain is Not Computable

#75
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was thinking about Schrodinger's cat. Quantum Decoherence and Consciousness are two phenomena not yet(?) explained by science, so it's natural to wonder if they're related to each other.

To clear things up, "Schrodinger's cat" was an attempt to show the absurdity of the current best interpretation of quantum mechanics (it _is_ absurd, but it still models reality to the best of our knowledge). It was never intended to be an actual experiment, nor would it actually work.

> It was never intended to be an actual experiment, nor would it actually work.

True, but it describes a theoretical property of quantum theory. Its value is only in showing the weirdness of the quantum world.

The problem is that many people read about it and conclude that it's a practical experiment.

Re: The Brain is Not Computable

#76
post #65
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are you conflating randomness with unpredictability?

I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt; unpredictable is as nonsensical as nonlinear in the context of the debate.

Anything one cannot find the order to one assigns as random or nonsensical? If someone doesn't have the understanding to see higher order patterns, how is calling it random a useful way to understand the higher order pattern?
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