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Four Hours of Concentration

johndcook.com

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Re: Four Hours of Concentration

#71
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to frame your rate in terms that demonstrate the value you'll be providing. Eg you could say you'll only be working 20 billable hours per week and suddenly it sounds like they will be getting some of your time for free. The rest of the time is actually taken up with marketing, administration, training etc.

Don't forget that some clients value face time. Sometimes I wonder if a client is just paying me to be around him...

I did contracting for some short stints when I was younger, and quickly realised that this was it.

I could quote a fixed price for some work, and they'd readily accept my rates. But if I then would try to leave after the amount of time the work actually took me, they'd question whether or not I was actually doing the job properly.

So I quoted even higher on the expectation that 1) I'd have to sit in a chair in their office 8 hours a day and so couldn't do other work elsewhere and needed to be compensated extra for that inconvenience, 2) I'd be bored out of my mind trying to fill the rest of the time I was there.

Never a question raised.

It was frustrating. Especially one job where I as stuck for 3 weeks on a machine with no internet connection doing a job I could easily finish with 2 hours every day. Whenever possible I'd work remotely.

Re: Four Hours of Concentration

#72
post #45

Unbelievable, 40+ comments and not one contrary opinion. Alright, I'll be that guy. I have no trouble doing more than 4 hours worth of mentally strenuous work in a day, and neither do most of the people I work with. Frequently enough I've put in sustained 12-16 hour days for weeks on end to meet a tough deadline. You'll generally find that the most successful people who are best at what they do have no trouble with t…

If I were to hire someone, and he claimed he can put in 12-16 hour days for weeks on end, I'd be inclined not to hire, based on the expectation that it means that he's either bullshitting me, or does not understand his own limits.

In 17 years of managing many dozen staff, mostly developers admittedly, in a variety of different settings, I've never seen a someone that managed to be productive with mentally strenuous even a full 8 hour day at a time other than very occasionally when they're on a roll. Generally, the ones that do best are those who manage to spread out their work, take proper breaks and intersperse the rest of their mentally demanding work with "menial" tasks, and who goes home and puts their work away completely.

Maybe your're an exception, but if you are, be prepared that people will either disbelieve you or expect you to prove it. More likely, your idea of "sustained 12-16 hour days" only actually involves a few hours of what the rest of us would consider mentally strenuous work a day.

Put in 12-16 hour days for a while with repetitive, simple tasks taking most of the time when working on something that is overall exciting, sure, that works for a while (though eventually that too tends to produce burnout - I've had to order developers home after the strain starter producing negative results with fewer hours than that).

For me, what works best is that whenever I feel that my concentration is slipping, if I don't feel I have time for a proper break, I will switch to mindless tasks, such as updating my todo list (often spending time breaking bigger tasks into tasks that are realistically small enough for windows of a couple of hours), doing my e-mail, or if I'm home I'll do the housework, and I'll try to "switch off" while I do, practicing mindfulness meditation for the truly "mindless" tasks such as cleaning.

Sometimes I get lucky, and my concentration stays on top for longer in one go, and I cherish those moments, but I "pay" afterwards (e.g. crash on the sofa when I get home, or need to slow down the following day).

Re: Four Hours of Concentration

#73

Back in the old days when I was in school, I didn't do well with more than 3 classes in a row in college. Not just me though, nearly everyone started with 2 Tu-Th 1.5 hr classes and 2 M-W-F 1 hr classes. That was a full time 12 unit load, but I always took at least 16 units, and sometimes as many as 24, which was up to 3 more classes a week. 16 units was a full time job, the semesters I took 20 and 24 were very speci…

> When I'm really refreshed and interested and doing well and eating right I can pull all nighters and maintain work quality. I can't maintain this for extended stretches at all though.

I pull all-nighters regularly to work on personal projects, and managed to push out 4-6 hours of concentration during them after a full day work, but the key to that for me (with the caveat that I'm close to 38, and probably could push through more when I was in school, but on the other hand I know how to pace myself far better):

- I nap 1-2hour in the evening, after dinner, and then take a 1-2 hour relaxation period where I'll vegetate totally in front of the TV or listening to music punctuated by low-concentration tasks such as making a list of what I hope to achieve (with estimates and times at the night where I hope to get to them, which makes for a hilarious lesson in how bad we are at reliably estimating stuff...)

- I pump myself full of caffeine (usually about 200mg, my caffeine sensitivity is really low) and b-vitamins, and "dripfeed" myself sugar.

- I'll use modafinil to retain alertness when I go off for work the next day.

- I'll go to the gym but focus on cardio, stretches and time in the steam room and make sure I have time to take "the slow train" which gives me a 30 minute nap during my commute.

- I'll make sure to take a proper relaxing lunch break. Sometimes I'll go find a park bench and sit and nap or meditate for half an hour.

- I'll make sure to schedule my daytime work to the times that works best for me, and try hard to get some extra high concentration work out of the way on the "before" days, and do more "menial" tasks on the "after" days to ensure the overall effect on my daytime job is minimal (overall I think I actually end up with a net benefit, as the personal projects I work on generally are learning experiences that are often synergistic to what I do during the day).

- I crash totally the next evening - usually going to bed at 8pm and sleeping until 6am the following day. Everything in my scheduling is geared towards keeping me productive the following day too, but with the expectation that the evening will be totally lost.

- If I at any time see my productivity start slipping at night, I go to bed. If I see my productivity start slipping in my day job, I take a week or two break from this schedule and get to bed extra early, because I know if I don't I'll tend to get into a rut where things take longer and tire me out more, prompting me to get stupid ideas about working even longer. And I never, ever do more than one or two of these a week...

In the end, I'm not gaining any hours per se, but the hours I get are hours where I'm more productive (the alternative for me was taking e.g. 8pm to 11pm on evenings where I'd still be tired and generally wouldn't concentrate well at all). The structure of a nap, slowly easing into it, and then focusing totally while the house is entirely quiet works very well for me. Probably isn't healthy in the long term, though. But I need me time desperately to stay sane (got a 3 year old that otherwise occupies all my time at home when he is awake).

It's a massive hassle just to get that extra block of concentrated time (now, if I could afford to slack off the entire following day at work, it'd be a lot easier :) ), but it feels worth it at the moment. When my son gets older and demands less of my time so I get more time to myself earlier in the evening, I very much doubt I'll keep this up (though I've grown attached to taking 1-3 hour naps in the evening and working a bit into the nap instead, so that I'll probably keep up to some extent)

Re: Four Hours of Concentration

#75
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incidentally, would the 2 hours of concentration take place at home? See: http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1995-09-15/?CmtOrder=Rating&...

No joke. Sometime the only time I get un-interrupted stretch of 2-3 hours is at home, at night.

Same for me, once my wife and kid are asleep

Re: Four Hours of Concentration

#76
Even though a lot of smart people agree that we can only get a few hours of real concentration a day, not many of them link to scientific papers that support this claim. I would agree that the claim "feels right". But in absence of a real experiment, how valuable is this insight really? Maybe useful to keep the idea in the back of one's head, but seems far from a definitive answer.

Re: Four Hours of Concentration

#77

Even though a lot of smart people agree that we can only get a few hours of real concentration a day, not many of them link to scientific papers that support this claim. I would agree that the claim "feels right". But in absence of a real experiment, how valuable is this insight really? Maybe useful to keep the idea in the back of one's head, but seems far from a definitive answer.

I imagine that any feasible scientific experiment would measure only a crude approximation to reality. How can you randomize someone to a job and a way of working? Most people are not capable of concentrating for four hours a day, or have jobs that don't permit it.

At best you might recruit some undergraduates -- nearly all psychology subjects are college students -- and have them do some artificial task one way or another for a couple weeks. I find anecdotes from successful musicians, scientists, and authors more persuasive than data from an contrived scientific study.

Re: Four Hours of Concentration

#78

Even though a lot of smart people agree that we can only get a few hours of real concentration a day, not many of them link to scientific papers that support this claim. I would agree that the claim "feels right". But in absence of a real experiment, how valuable is this insight really? Maybe useful to keep the idea in the back of one's head, but seems far from a definitive answer.

I imagine that any feasible scientific experiment would measure only a crude approximation to reality. How can you randomize someone to a job and a way of working? Most people are not capable of concentrating for four hours a day, or have jobs that don't permit it. At best you might recruit some undergraduates -- nearly all psychology subjects are college students -- and have them do some artificial task one way or a…

Those are good points and I agree with everything you said. And even though anecdotes are informative, they may not be enough to make big important claims about how people should manage their mental energy.

Re: Four Hours of Concentration

#79

Even though a lot of smart people agree that we can only get a few hours of real concentration a day, not many of them link to scientific papers that support this claim. I would agree that the claim "feels right". But in absence of a real experiment, how valuable is this insight really? Maybe useful to keep the idea in the back of one's head, but seems far from a definitive answer.

http://projects.ict.usc.edu/itw/gel/EricssonDeliberatePracti...

Re: Four Hours of Concentration

#80
post #45

Unbelievable, 40+ comments and not one contrary opinion. Alright, I'll be that guy. I have no trouble doing more than 4 hours worth of mentally strenuous work in a day, and neither do most of the people I work with. Frequently enough I've put in sustained 12-16 hour days for weeks on end to meet a tough deadline. You'll generally find that the most successful people who are best at what they do have no trouble with t…

Upvoted.

It seemed to me that the research cited was likely a bit thin. I couldn't tune a guitar, so I have no idea about violin players. But there have been notable cases of very hard-working creative types--Flaubert and Sand come to mind, and Herbert Simon (Turing Award, Nobelist in economics) claimed that a 60-hour work week was about right for him.

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