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A Truth About the Glass Ceiling No One Wants to Talk About

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Re: A Truth About the Glass Ceiling No One Wants to Talk About

#71
This is a ridiculously hard issue to discuss, especially with anyone who identifies with a group they feel has been victimized. Which can stretch to almost anyone these days.

The only thing I wanted to add here is that the article & subsequent discussion seems to be about whether or not it's acceptable for men/women/other to be judged based on anything except their competence. I think that's what can make this topic tricky - because companies, in my (admittedly limited) experience don't just hire based on competence.

Most people would think it was acceptable not to hire someone because they didn't "fit" with the company's culture. Maybe they were a jerk, maybe they were hugely arrogant, maybe they didn't shower, maybe they showed up in a three-piece suit to your shorts and flip-flops interview, whatever it is. So really this whole discussion ought to be about what things are acceptable to discriminate against to determine "fit" and what things aren't.

Which I think requires taking a look at what it means to assess someone for "fit" - because I can see how easy it is for "attractiveness" to be a part of that definition. So should it not be? What should - and on what grounds? I think the discussion becomes subjective quite quickly...which is what makes it all so hard to discuss.

Re: A Truth About the Glass Ceiling No One Wants to Talk About

#72
Anecdotal, but in my experience smart girls are uglier and cute girls are stupider.

This is verified by comparing 2 groups: nightclub girls and science research nerd girls.

As a group the nerd girls are uglier on average, because there are several severely plain nerd girls, though an individual nerd girl may be very attractive.

As a group the disco girls are stupider on average, because there are several severely ditzy disco girls, though an individual disco girl may have brains.

I believe the reason for this is that it takes effort to make yourself attractive, just as it takes effort to make yourself smart, so there is a trade off.

Re: A Truth About the Glass Ceiling No One Wants to Talk About

#73
post #13

I'm slightly apprehensive (terrified) about commenting on this topic or any relating to gender/race because it seems like the bar for public crucifixion is somewhat low, even to those who just want to add data or other side-points to a discussion. Anyway, and I apologize in advance if I derail the topic, but I think there's a semi important distinction to qualify this discussion, because I do think the discussion app…

Of course it's also possible that height and attractiveness are correlated with competence (e.g. because healthy diets as children influence all three attributes), in which case we'd expect to see more tall/attractive people promoted even in a meritocracy (though perhaps not to the observed degree).

Or indeed, height/attractiveness could be (almost certainly are) correlated with self-confidence and assertiveness. Which is obviously something of a chicken/egg thing.

Re: A Truth About the Glass Ceiling No One Wants to Talk About

#74
I feel compelled to include a link to Roy Baumeister's "Is There Anything Good About Men?": http://www.psy.fsu.edu/~baumeistertice/goodaboutmen.htm. It is possible that there are fewer women in the upper echelons of business because evolutionarily women didn't have to take as many risks as men in order to reproduce. So men are biologically programmed to take risks, and either spectacularly succeed or spectacularly fail. Hence there are more male CEOs, but there are also more male homeless, for example.

Re: A Truth About the Glass Ceiling No One Wants to Talk About

#75
post #72

Anecdotal, but in my experience smart girls are uglier and cute girls are stupider. This is verified by comparing 2 groups: nightclub girls and science research nerd girls. As a group the nerd girls are uglier on average, because there are several severely plain nerd girls, though an individual nerd girl may be very attractive. As a group the disco girls are stupider on average, because there are several severely dit…

There is a flaw in your methodology. You are comparing a group of preselected smart girls with a group of preselected pretty girls. Neither is a representative sample of the population.

Re: A Truth About the Glass Ceiling No One Wants to Talk About

#76
post #5

Here are the female CEO's of the fortune 500. Meg Whitman, HP (#10) Virginia Rometty, IBM (#19) Patricia A. Woertz, Archer Daniels Midland Company (ADM) (#28) Indra K. Nooyi, PepsiCo, Inc. (#41) Irene B. Rosenfeld, Mondelez International Marillyn Hewson, Lockheed Martin (#58) Ellen J. Kullman, DuPont (#72) Phebe Novakovic, General Dynamics (#92) Carol M. Meyrowitz, The TJX Companies, Inc. (#125) Ursula M. Burns, Xero…

With image links so you can judge for yourself whether the conclusions of the article hold true or not. Personally I don't think so. Whilst I wouldn't describe any of these hugely succesful women as unattractive, I think they would compare to the attractiveness ratings of male CEOs (also a bit above average). Meg Whitman, HP (#10) https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Meg+Whitman&tbm=isch Virginia Rometty, IBM (#19) http…

Of course to test the theory the attractiveness should be judged based on their appearance at about age 22 and the judgement made by men 5-15 years older who were making the hiring judgements at the time.

Re: A Truth About the Glass Ceiling No One Wants to Talk About

#77
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The link is still there in the developed world, though perhaps not in the way you'd think: studies have shown that poorer people are more likely to be overweight. One is left to speculate as to why, but clearly if attractiveness is linked to later performance in life, then many of these people would start off at a further disadvantage as a result. e.g. just this week http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21158087

>>One is left to speculate as to why There is no need for speculation, since we already know the answer: fast-food is both affordable and calorie-dense, which is why lower-income people consume it and become overweight. Ever noticed how many fast-food restaurants there are in lower-income neighborhoods?

I would add, the chemistry of stress. Fast food is a counter-stressor, chemically. the body responds to the presence of fatty/salty/sweet/high-carb etc food in a metabolic way.

Re: A Truth About the Glass Ceiling No One Wants to Talk About

#78
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the developed world I would hope that virtually everyone has good enough health/nutrition and thus variation in height and appearance is due more to genetics.

Agreed, diet is a poor explanation for developed countries. What seems more likely is that the discrimination start earlier, in college or high school where athletic students have an easier time going to the best colleges simply because they are good at a sport (assuming height is correlated to being good at a sport popular in college)

I doubt this is very explanatory.

Height is doubtless correlated with athleticism, but it's fairly weakly correlated. Except in basketball, when you see a group of athletes, you'll tend to see a range of heights. A little taller than average? Sure. But not immensely so.

And then, athleticism is doubtless correlated with admission to elite universities, but, again, only weakly so. The top tier and second tier universities like to see some extracurricular activities on your record, but "being good at cross country running" is far from a sure-fire way to get into Harvard. The REALLY good athletes don't go to top-tier academic universities, and don't get corporate jobs -- they're on the pro athlete track.

You might get into Harvard due to being a good football player but not good enough to go pro, even if you were not otherwise academically capable of going to Harvard. But, first, you're now talking about a small percentage of Harvard students. Second, I'd like to see some data before I'd concede that IF you're clearly not elite-university quality academically, BUT you get in on your athletic merits, AND you go into a corporate track job, THEN you end up with an elite career path.

So, long story short: Is there probably some advantage to height through the path you suggest? Yes, probably some measurable advantage. Is it enough to explain the pretty substantial advantage that tall men enjoy according to the literature? I can't see how. It's passing through too many weak correlations.

Re: A Truth About the Glass Ceiling No One Wants to Talk About

#79
post #72

Anecdotal, but in my experience smart girls are uglier and cute girls are stupider. This is verified by comparing 2 groups: nightclub girls and science research nerd girls. As a group the nerd girls are uglier on average, because there are several severely plain nerd girls, though an individual nerd girl may be very attractive. As a group the disco girls are stupider on average, because there are several severely dit…

There is a flaw in your methodology. You are comparing a group of preselected smart girls with a group of preselected pretty girls. Neither is a representative sample of the population.

3 Questions then:

A) Do you disagree with my position on effort?

B) How else is one going to encounter this phenomenon in real life?

C) How should I correctly test the hypothesis?

Re: A Truth About the Glass Ceiling No One Wants to Talk About

#80
post #13

I'm slightly apprehensive (terrified) about commenting on this topic or any relating to gender/race because it seems like the bar for public crucifixion is somewhat low, even to those who just want to add data or other side-points to a discussion. Anyway, and I apologize in advance if I derail the topic, but I think there's a semi important distinction to qualify this discussion, because I do think the discussion app…

Of course it's also possible that height and attractiveness are correlated with competence (e.g. because healthy diets as children influence all three attributes), in which case we'd expect to see more tall/attractive people promoted even in a meritocracy (though perhaps not to the observed degree).

Sure, but making that argument is entering a mined field. You could as well say that skin color is correlated with intelligence because (I'm just making this up) living in Africa was easier than in harsher climates so their brains got smarter.

Btw, it's easy to see if your hypothesis is correct. Just check the heights of graduate males of tough university programs such as medical research, physics, mathematics etc. I belive that the distribution of their heights will be closer to the population average than the heights of CEO:s, top politicians and other "high-status" jobs. I belive it is because those positions isn't selected to solely on merit, but also on charisma or vaguely defined "leadership qualities."

In my experience, with lots of developers and engineers I've worked with, there is no height bias among them. Tall and short engineers and everyone in between. However, upper management and the sales guys are generally tall guys. Now, assuming that height is positively correlated with intelligence, and assuming that engineers are smarter than management and sales people, that observation makes no sense. :) You would expect to see extra tall engineers (because they need the extra brainpower) and shorter management and sales people.

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