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A misalignment of AI in mathematics

mathandai.org

71–80 of 642 posts

Re: A misalignment of AI in mathematics

#71
post #65

Everyones outraged all the time. It doesn't mean anything anymore. It's that meme from years ago about the red ants and the black ants living in a box peacefully until someone shakes the box and they start trying to kill each other. They go after each other and not the one shaking the box. OpenAI/Anthropic are shaking the box.

The ants ARE going after the one shaking the box

Re: A misalignment of AI in mathematics

#72

[flagged]

Not quite, all the proofs or disproofs so far AFAIK were using existing methods that humans developed and were already using to attack the problems, but AI is just more thorough. What AI can't do currently is develop new mathematical methods to attack problems that can't be solved with existing methods and AFAIK there is no known path to get current gen AI to do so.

Re: A misalignment of AI in mathematics

#74

[flagged]

The point is human understanding. If the LLMs understand, but the humans don’t, where does that leave humanity? Building things we don’t understand is a sure path to facing consequences we can’t predict. Your comment also conveniently ignores the plagiarism aspect of it all. Who is coping here?

There are many points.

>Building things we don’t understand is a sure path to facing consequences we can’t predict.

We don't understand all of physics yet we were able to do plenty. Even before Newtonian physics we were still able to build things that last. The idea that humans have to understand everything and abstracting things will lead to ruin is not supported.

Part of math is building abstractions so that you can be able to use other people's work without fully understanding it. No one person has a full understanding of mathematics.

Re: A misalignment of AI in mathematics

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's beautiful. Because you love math for maths sake and not some weird egotistical game

Is "loving math for maths sake" just about knowing the answers? I think one can love math for exactly the process and understanding that a several-thousand-line uncommented Lean proof denies. If a deity rearranged the stars to spell out "The Riemann hypothesis is false" for a night, would that be intellectually sufficient?

No that's not sufficient but that's not what's happening.

Why do we believe that we cannot train models which could explain the jargon in more human terms when current LLMs can perfectly explain the most complicated codebases?

Re: A misalignment of AI in mathematics

#76
post #65

Everyones outraged all the time. It doesn't mean anything anymore. It's that meme from years ago about the red ants and the black ants living in a box peacefully until someone shakes the box and they start trying to kill each other. They go after each other and not the one shaking the box. OpenAI/Anthropic are shaking the box.

The ants ARE going after the one shaking the box

This time, until they dont anymore. The next stage is people attacking the mathematicians and accusing them. The OpenAI fans come out to attack, then the masses will pick sides and it all just becomes a mess

Re: A misalignment of AI in mathematics

#77
Seeing how /r/singularity and /r/accelerate are leaking into maths forums, I foresee a wave of comments that fail to understand Tao's message, whether on purpose or not, so let's try to be clear here:

Tao is not someone who is anti-AI for the sake of being anti-AI. He has been advocating for the usefulness of AI in maths for a long time, to the point that people have started calling him a shill for the commercial companies.

And everyone agrees that there are plenty of use cases to be had; helping with less interesting tasks like easing literature review, efficiently delving into existing work, doing review, whether on your own work or that of others, prototyping algorithms in areas where computation is useful, but also more in hands-on aspects of maths like validating potential proof directions by getting quick feedback on veracity of lemmas, etc., and, on very rare occasions, being able to one-shot the problem you care about.

The point he is trying to make here is much more subtle than "AI bad", and it's probably easy to miss if you have never engaged with research in maths: it's that the particular approach that large commercial companies have opted to take to produce marketing material can be a net negative. There is not doubt that -- even if you ignore the rampant plagiarism that has been reported across multiple problems now, the unethical attempts to oust authors, the outrageous attempts to scoop researchers instead of collaborating with them and building on existing projects -- it's nifty to have a machine that can help you figure out if a proposition is true or not. But just figuring out as much was never the point. When people have built problem lists, it's because some problems are more likely than others to provide new insight, and that insight is the target. And to than end, a poorly written paper with inadequate references and a pile of Lean is not valuable at all. Yes, now we know with higher certainty that Fermat's Last Theorem is true, but everyone expected that already.

One place where "just" answering the question can be a net negative is because the current incentive structure is set up in such a way that going in afterwards, trying to reclaim and extract the insights from a brute force solution, is considered less valuable work than that of coming up with a solution in the first place. That's a problem of incentives, and something Tao himself has addressed in e.g. his ICM talk, and that's something that we'll want to do something about. Until a better structure appears, though, if any given commercial provider of large language models really wants to help out with maths research and not just make more pre-IPO marketing material by competing with their customers, they could do so by using their magic machines to help build insight instead.

Re: A misalignment of AI in mathematics

#80
First, what an incredible article. Just an extremely concise and clear explanation of all of the problems with AI right now.

Second, wow, the list of signatories is like a whos-who of mathematicians.

Third, I love the clearly intentional use of ‘alignment/misalignment’ language, applied to targeting the entire industry instead of AI in particular. I’ve said in the past that optimizers are substrate agnostic. Companies and governments can be misaligned, just in the same way AI can.

Fourth, I'm not sure that we can stop the optimization machines. Not the LLMs, I mean the incentives that lead to companies implementing dark patterns, lying about addiction, securing effective monopolies through downright shady behavior, and generally trying to jailbreak the system instead of improve it

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