Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

rte.ie

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 147 posts

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#71

Post by whazor »

expedition32 wrote: post #36

I live in a rich European country. This is not Shenzhen. The, very scarce, technically inclined people who know how to repair a vacuum cleaner or electronic toothbrush can get a real job with an hourly rate that makes repairs economically unfeasible. Repair cafes are nice hobby projects for pensionados but it is not going to move the needle.

My robot vacuum cleaner broke. The lidar sensor is broken. The manufactures asked me to send it to their repair center but the whole thing, including the dock. This is a major pain to do so. I would much rather receive a new lidar sensor with some instructions on how to repair it myself.

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#72

Post by DanielHB »

troupo wrote: post #2

> including a repair obligation for manufacturers of certain products Unfortunately regulations often don't go far enough. I have a ~10 year old iPad Pro in perfect working condition. I can basically do nothing with it, and increasingly it can no longer even browse the internet because Safari is so outdated on it. So it will be waste. See similar story about Amazon bricking old Kindles: https://www.techradar.com/tabl…

Divorcing the OS from the hardware means stuff just lasts far, far longer.

Like just a few years ago it became impossible to run 32bit windows which effectively killed all OS software updates for hardware older than ~2005. Most application software followed.

On the Linux they just dropped support for the 486 and older versions of the kernel will likely still get security updates for a while.

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#73

Post by another-dave »

lnsru wrote: post #24

Good luck to hardware startups in Europe! For every developer now a company needs one technical writer or compliance specialist. That basically means that all small everyday electronics products will come from overseas. Either because it’s cheaper or it’s cheaper and nobody cares about certification.

"The 'right to repair' regulations introduce new rights and supports aimed at encouraging repair over disposal, including a repair obligation for manufacturers of certain products and the establishment of a national repair platform to help consumers locate repair services."

If your hardware start-up was going to tell me to buy a new product if it broke after a year, then I've no problem if it doesn't get going in the EU.

We don't need more cheap tat, we need things that can have a reasonable shelf life. We used to expect that from products as standard. Then when more things became electronic, it started to drift into obsolence after X years.

But there's so many products that don't need to be replaced. I don't need a state-of-the-art pedometer or weighing scales, I just need one that does the job it did when I bought it.

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#74

Post by DanielHB »

xxs wrote: post #22
troupo wrote: post #2

> including a repair obligation for manufacturers of certain products Unfortunately regulations often don't go far enough. I have a ~10 year old iPad Pro in perfect working condition. I can basically do nothing with it, and increasingly it can no longer even browse the internet because Safari is so outdated on it. So it will be waste. See similar story about Amazon bricking old Kindles: https://www.techradar.com/tabl…

the main issue is that's an ipad and it's locked. In contrast - a 15y+ laptop can be used (after few upgrades - i5-560M, 8GB RAM, 500GB SSD, AC-8260) to do office work: it runs the latest Firefox and Open Office + googledocs and friends without too much trouble.

Android devices are unlocked, non-manufacturer OSes are still well outside of "easy" to install, much less get all features working.

The main problem is that people maintaining the OS build for your hardware is the same people making the hardware. If legislation forced to divest both into separate companies the support would last far, far longer.

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#75

Post by vv_ »

realusername wrote: post #56
vv_ wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm asking these devices to work like normal computers > Yes I expect do be able to do all of those things if I want to For the components I listed, and based on my understanding of "normal computers" as desktops and laptops, you cannot do all of these things today. > it's my computer It's their firmware. They don't magically give up their intellectual property rights when you purchase a piece of hardware from them…

I never stated that I own the intellectual property but I'm stating that I own the device and such, should be able to do any modification I see fit to the device, regardless if the manufacturer thinks it's a good idea or not. And yes, I also support adding laws to force manufacturers to respect my rights. > However, that shouldn't come with the expectation that the hardware's chain of trust remains intact or that all…

> I'm okay with that if the manufacturer doesn't remove features in bad faith

Again with the abstract. Provide an example of a manufacturer removing features in "bad faith." It is very likely that what you view as a "bad faith" action actually has a reasonable explanation from the manufacturer's perspective. This is especially true in cases of chain-of-trust and anti-tamper protections.

> I never stated that I own the intellectual property but I'm stating that I own the device and such

Technical specifications, datasheets, and similar materials can also constitute intellectual property of the manufacturer. Without access to these, you may not be able to "do any modification I see fit," especially when phrased so broadly that it could mean almost anything.

The only option I can see being somewhat feasible is for manufacturers to eventually release APIs with closed-source binaries, allowing users to create their own applications or operating systems.

This would, however, require regulation to ensure that manufacturers are allowed to provide these interfaces, as in some cases even the APIs themselves may be considered intellectual property, and manufacturers may not always be legally allowed to disclose them. Although it could be argued that if this is regulated, manufacturers would select vendors that can meet these regulatory demands.

The other issues to resolve here would be anti-tamper and chain-of-trust concerns that could arise from such an approach. However, if there were no expectation that users would continue to have access to the manufacturer's software or services, I think these issues could be resolved.

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#76

Post by birdsongs »

lnsru wrote: post #62
birdsongs wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is so disingenuous. I've been part of two Norwegian hard tech startups in the past few years (one as a founder, one currently as an embedded lead) and all it took was our mech engineer (which you will always need) making an accessible case design and publishing a short two page PDF on disassembly. Down the road, if we make it, we will have access to funds for a few roles that maintain spare parts and a repair (m…

How good is your employer prepared for Cyber Resilience Act?

Fine. We're already meeting the goals for free by virtue of building a secure product and infrastructure from the start. (Read: a good product.) When risk assessments and certs are required and roll out (1.5 years from now), we'll just get a contractor or two on board for a few months to do it, and to set up the processes to keep it rolling. It's in the budget.

People act like these are industry shattering requirements, but hard tech is already subject to a plethora of requirements we have to handle every day. We will always have some kind of process for CE certification, battery safety requirements, GDPR, or open source licensing and toolchain access, etc, etc. This is just another (honestly, minor) process to roll in with the rest of them.

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#77

Post by vanderZwan »

expedition32 wrote: post #36

I live in a rich European country. This is not Shenzhen. The, very scarce, technically inclined people who know how to repair a vacuum cleaner or electronic toothbrush can get a real job with an hourly rate that makes repairs economically unfeasible. Repair cafes are nice hobby projects for pensionados but it is not going to move the needle.

Not everything has to be a business. Our local library has "repair café Sundays", and most of the people involved in it are volunteers. There are some "pensionados" among them (and they are cherished for their institutional knowledge), but they are definitely not the majority. There is a strong community of interested tech nerds that like to help each other out and learn how to fix things themselves, and who also want to learn from the previous generation.

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#79

Post by Beretta_Vexee »

zombot wrote: post #78

And how much of it will be ineffective because the worst offenders have bought their ways out?

It’s a step in the right direction; the alternative would be to do nothing whilst waiting for a perfect text that will never materialise.

Re: New EU-wide product repair rules come into force

#80

Post by NolF »

stavros wrote: post #51
kubelsmieci wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why can't I buy an upgrade for $30 or whatever? Because otherwise you won't buy new device for full price

Well yes, of course. That shouldn't be the determinant, though.

There probably also won't be enough people to pay $30 per year to justify the salary of the people to maintain it. Microsoft tried that with Windows 10 and largely gave up outside of Corporations which they had by the gonads.
Post reply on HN