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Amazon backs power plant that may become top source of US climate pollution

arstechnica.com

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Re: Amazon backs power plant that may become top source of US climate pollution

#71

Post by pixl97 »

tptacek wrote: post #48
shimman wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not majority opinion to be against data centers? One of the largest bipartisan issues of our time, something like 70% of the US population being against it in some capacity (likely even higher)? https://news.gallup.com/poll/709772/americans-oppose-data-ce...

That poll says Americans broadly oppose data centers in their local area . A poll of all Americans would likely find broad majority support for the construction of data centers in Texas; a poll isomorphic to this one would also find similarly broad opposition to the construction of apartment buildings in their local area.

The "9 out if 10 Americans vote to light other Americans on fire" effect.

Re: Amazon backs power plant that may become top source of US climate pollution

#72

Post by jakebol »

tptacek wrote: post #48
shimman wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not majority opinion to be against data centers? One of the largest bipartisan issues of our time, something like 70% of the US population being against it in some capacity (likely even higher)? https://news.gallup.com/poll/709772/americans-oppose-data-ce...

That poll says Americans broadly oppose data centers in their local area . A poll of all Americans would likely find broad majority support for the construction of data centers in Texas; a poll isomorphic to this one would also find similarly broad opposition to the construction of apartment buildings in their local area.

Reuters/Ipsos did some polling on general sentiment about data center construction nationwide last month. “Building data centers at a rapid pace across the US is mainly a good thing” only 33% support, which is a +15% change from local community buildout but hardly a majority.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/americans-wary-ai-driven-da...

Re: Amazon backs power plant that may become top source of US climate pollution

#73

Post by georgemcbay »

tptacek wrote: post #48
shimman wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not majority opinion to be against data centers? One of the largest bipartisan issues of our time, something like 70% of the US population being against it in some capacity (likely even higher)? https://news.gallup.com/poll/709772/americans-oppose-data-ce...

That poll says Americans broadly oppose data centers in their local area . A poll of all Americans would likely find broad majority support for the construction of data centers in Texas; a poll isomorphic to this one would also find similarly broad opposition to the construction of apartment buildings in their local area.

I'm not convinced these two things (data centers vs apartment buildings) are that similar, though there is probably some overlap.

People don't just hate the idea of data centers "in their backyard" the way they do with housing, they also just fundamentally despise the tech companies and personalities who are creating these data centers.

Re: Amazon backs power plant that may become top source of US climate pollution

#74

Post by hocuspocus »

shafyy wrote: post #21
throwitaway222 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BUT NUKES! All jokes aside, yes, we should invest massively in nuclear.

No we shouldn't. Nuclear waste is not and will never be solved. Nuclear meltdowns are real. Also, nuclear is more expensive than wind and solar.

Nuclear waste is a nice problem to have, and fairly simple compared to most pollution sources associated with our lifestyle.

No need to worry though, on the current trajectory I doubt our civilization will have the opportunity to deal with it.

Re: Amazon backs power plant that may become top source of US climate pollution

#75

Post by jahnu »

delichon wrote: post #54
AgentOrange1234 wrote: post #2

This is so unacceptable. Build as many data centers as you want, but fossil fuels NEED to stop yesterday.

> fossil fuels NEED to stop yesterday At the current rate it will stop in four to ten centuries. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/HPXRjoqbcAATWUu?format=jpg

Yes at the current rate but if I drew a line at the 2006 rate of solar growth would it have anything to do with the rate now? How about 2016? I’m down about our prospects for limiting the damage but let’s not be irrationally doomer about it either.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/installed-solar-pv-capaci...

Re: Amazon backs power plant that may become top source of US climate pollution

#76

Post by reilly3000 »

throwaway473825 wrote: post #69
Lerc wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In broad strokes I tend to agree. I think there is a fairly good path to moving most things to electricity and in turn moving most electricity generation to renewables. The more nuanced view is that I would support a residual use of fossil fuels for niche applications that require the properties of the fuel in instances where no known substitute solution would do the job. By and large, renewables are marching towards…

While a good point, it also creates lock-in effects. If you look at the top EV adopters, they barely use gas power. This likely isn't a coincidence. Now you will have the AI lobby pushing against EVs (so that oil drilling can create gas as a byproduct), as if it wasn't already an uphill battle in the US...

I suppose EVs are putting pressure on their precious grid.

Re: Amazon backs power plant that may become top source of US climate pollution

#77

Post by madrox »

Lerc wrote: post #35

It's possibly worth noting that the source for this is an application for a permit > GW Ranch received a permit from the state of Texas allowing the gas power plant to emit 33 million tons of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. If the project emitted that much CO2, it would be the largest single source of pollution in the United States Immediately following that is the text "It’s worth noting that companies rarely em…

When crypto rage was at its peak and people had done math to figure out precisely the energy impact it had, people were up in arms about how much it used.

I tried to point out that we're only talking about this because the public ledger makes it easy to measure such things, and we have nothing to really compare it to and we judge no other industry this way.

People raged at me for saying this and assumed I was a crypto shill, in spite of me loathing crypto and never owning any.

All this to say I appreciate your comment and the desire for precise criticism. I hate aggrandizement whether I agree with the position or not.

Re: Amazon backs power plant that may become top source of US climate pollution

#78

Post by tptacek »

georgemcbay wrote: post #73
tptacek wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That poll says Americans broadly oppose data centers in their local area . A poll of all Americans would likely find broad majority support for the construction of data centers in Texas; a poll isomorphic to this one would also find similarly broad opposition to the construction of apartment buildings in their local area.

I'm not convinced these two things (data centers vs apartment buildings) are that similar, though there is probably some overlap. People don't just hate the idea of data centers "in their backyard" the way they do with housing, they also just fundamentally despise the tech companies and personalities who are creating these data centers.

People say this all the time online, but actual opinion polls show otherwise. People generally love Amazon, and have a high opinion of OpenAI (if you're not in the industry, it's not unlikely you don't really know who Anthropic is.)

The underlying principal components of these data center polls are very probably just:

(1) Concern about electrical bills, which are often valid, and noise, which sometimes can be as well

(2) Political polarization (Democrats --- I'm a lifelong Democrat --- are currently getting marching orders to oppose data centers)

(3) Bogus concerns about water.

We spend a great deal more time and energy thinking about DCs on HN than the median poll respondant ever will. And still, the idea that there's striking public opposition to data centers anywhere in the country is hard to support with evidence.

Fortunately, I think the public opinion fever about data centers is starting to break. I'm reading more and more left-leaning stories questioning the narrative. I think there's a good chance this sentiment crystalizes to something more specific and productive, like "stop letting Elon Musk do things".

Re: Amazon backs power plant that may become top source of US climate pollution

#79

Post by hocuspocus »

fragmede wrote: post #28
shafyy wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No we shouldn't. Nuclear waste is not and will never be solved. Nuclear meltdowns are real. Also, nuclear is more expensive than wind and solar.

We absolutely will solve it. That's called fusion.

You don't even need that. Fast breeder reactors are enough.

Re: Amazon backs power plant that may become top source of US climate pollution

#80

Post by odo1242 »

delichon wrote: post #54
AgentOrange1234 wrote: post #2

This is so unacceptable. Build as many data centers as you want, but fossil fuels NEED to stop yesterday.

> fossil fuels NEED to stop yesterday At the current rate it will stop in four to ten centuries. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/HPXRjoqbcAATWUu?format=jpg

Physical limitations dictate it'll stop (being worth it economically to keep extracting) by like 2080 or 2090, but we'll be in way worse shape by then.

That said there has never been argument about whether we are on that trajectory, we want to be on that trajectory

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