Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

academic.oup.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 223 posts

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#71

Post by siren2026 »

sigmoid10 wrote: post #62
bodash wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I’m also a night owl who struggled waking up like an early bird. Was the transition and efforts worth it? Recently I tried to find a better schedule other than spending another X years fighting my biological clock

Eliminate all screens after sundown. It's literally the nr 1 reason why people struggle. I used to as well (I could easily work in front of a monitor until 4am without getting tired with no coffee or anything). After that, avoid any bright white lights in the evening (usually kitchen/bathroom). It's not always possible, depending on your work and place of living and especially while travelling. I ended up getting ext…

I tried all those things, none worked.

You are assuming every brain is wired like yours. It has been proven multiple times that we all have different hormonal levels during the day based on the light patterns. Some people only produce melatonin several hours after it's getting dark.

Your assumption of a world where we all behave the same regarding sleep is one of the reason why the US became such a bad 6AM hustle culture.

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#72

Post by magicalhippo »

PeterStuer wrote: post #42

Tangentially: as a 'young adult' I was a typical 'night owl'. Cognitivly I peaked between 10pm and 3am, typically slept from 4am to 11am. When I got kids and a more 'regular' job, I was forced to change to a more normal schedule. The transition from 'owl' to 'lark' was not easy. It took about 7 years. These days, I peak 7am to 1pm.

I too found myself most productive after 9 pm.

But when I moved on my own I found that it shifted quite naturally. I'd wake up earlier and go to bed earlier, and then productive peak shifted to be during working hours.

I think for me the key factor was primarily that the house was quiet after 9 pm.

When I was on my own it was quiet all day.

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#73

Post by maccard »

bodash wrote: post #51
PeterStuer wrote: post #42

Tangentially: as a 'young adult' I was a typical 'night owl'. Cognitivly I peaked between 10pm and 3am, typically slept from 4am to 11am. When I got kids and a more 'regular' job, I was forced to change to a more normal schedule. The transition from 'owl' to 'lark' was not easy. It took about 7 years. These days, I peak 7am to 1pm.

Interesting. I’m also a night owl who struggled waking up like an early bird. Was the transition and efforts worth it? Recently I tried to find a better schedule other than spending another X years fighting my biological clock

Anecdotally, I’m a night owl by default but if I force myself up for exercise at 7am, I am tired that night and I am better (mentally and physically) that day. My workouts aren’t as good as if they were after work, but it doesn’t matter if I’m going 3/4 times a week.

My mood is better, my routine matches the “world” better, and I would say I’m mentally sharper on those days too. YMMV

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#74

Post by iammjm »

bodash wrote: post #51
PeterStuer wrote: post #42

Tangentially: as a 'young adult' I was a typical 'night owl'. Cognitivly I peaked between 10pm and 3am, typically slept from 4am to 11am. When I got kids and a more 'regular' job, I was forced to change to a more normal schedule. The transition from 'owl' to 'lark' was not easy. It took about 7 years. These days, I peak 7am to 1pm.

Interesting. I’m also a night owl who struggled waking up like an early bird. Was the transition and efforts worth it? Recently I tried to find a better schedule other than spending another X years fighting my biological clock

This is how I did it: this is about two things: mornings and evenings and both need attention. Set a new wake up time. Deduct 7 hours from it. Deduct one more for buffer. This tells you when you need to be in bed with lights out and trying to fall asleep to then get the mandatory 7h of sleep to be a functional human being in the morning. If your new wake target is 5:45, you need to be in bed lights out at 22:45 and since 21:45 with no screens. So you need to deduct another hour to cut off screens early, and in optimal case like -3 more to cut food intake and -6 more to cut caffeine intake. I got some reminders on my phone which let me know the time comes, so I spend the last hour before nights out reading or writing or whatever. So that’s evenings. In the morning my phone rings and to turn it off I need to scan a QR code in my bathroom (alarmy app). This forces me out of bed and then I drink about 500ml of water. I also have a smart plug with a LED light on it which go on together with the alarm clock and goes on for 20 mins. Once wake, I spend 15 minutes in front of it getting light in my face which signals the body the day starts. Then I get dressed and go out for a short quick walk/run outside (aka powerwalk) which gets my heart working. Then I come back, make coffee and start work. This way I get enough good quality sleep + each morning physical signals (water, light, movement) that signal my body it is action time. I was very surprised that already after a week my body started waking up minutes before the alarm clock! And that’s after decades of irregular late sleep! But consistency is key: early sleep and early wake up on as many days as possible. It is totally doable and you can streamline in into a simple process which doesn’t take much time or effort.

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#75

Post by maccard »

margor wrote: post #24
Uptrenda wrote: post #21

As a long term insomniac the head line result is not surprising. My overall experience with "sleep aides" is they all lead to impairments in morning cognition. The worst of which don't last just the morning... (seroquel, I'm pointing at you...) Melatonin is surprisingly powerful for a hormone / supplement. For me, it hits like a truck, and I find it strong enough that I had to stop taking it. I'd be careful with the…

Yeah, sure. I would love to find a natural or lifestyle remedy to common RLS or PLMD symptoms that I get from time to time. The problem is that for some people it's impossible to identify what are the triggers and sometimes it's just genetics you have no control over. But sure, do tell people to avoid doctors and make them suffer even though there are drug remedies that don't cause dependence and augumentation.

Being charitable to OP, I think their advice is to look after your health before hyper focusing on your sleep. I’ve had a similar experience - the better I care for my body the better my sleep is (and the opposite is a self reinforcing cycle). For me, personally, CBT and therapy helped hugely with the feelings of overwhelm I got from feeling like I wasn’t getting enough sleep and gave me the tools to deal with the fact that I’m not going to fall asleep at 11:30 and wake up at 7:30 like I would like to. It’s not perfect, but what is?

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#76

Post by ventana »

Itchyjohn wrote: post #64
bodash wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I’m also a night owl who struggled waking up like an early bird. Was the transition and efforts worth it? Recently I tried to find a better schedule other than spending another X years fighting my biological clock

You have to completely stop caffeine, best to cut nicotine too. It's worth it. Watch out for caffeine In cola etc.

Being a coffee drinker, I would not agree with the "worth it" part, but I was indeed surprised to learn some time ago that a can of Diet coke contains 46 mg of caffeine, which is basically a half of espresso shot. We don't let kids drink coffee, but we let them drink coke, which just does not make any sense. Out of these two, I would assume espresso brings much less harm!

Recently, I started using an app to track my caffeine consumption during a day (there are a bunch of those in the stores), and even though I haven't stopped drinking coffee and not planning to, I'm trying to stay within a reasonable limit and switch to decaf if I'm close to it.

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#77

Post by FooBarWidget »

siren2026 wrote: post #67
Itchyjohn wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to completely stop caffeine, best to cut nicotine too. It's worth it. Watch out for caffeine In cola etc.

Why is it worth it? Why are you fighting against your natural circadian rhythm? We still all got 24 hours right? My background is that as the poster above, I have always been a night owl, with the ability to function and wake up earlier if I need to. For years I have tried to change it because of beliefs like yours that it was "worth it". Whenever I tried to change it I would feel unergetic, crappy and unmotivated. I…

Taking caffeine is fighting against natural circadian rhythm, avoiding caffeine isn't.

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#78

Post by mettamage »

siren2026 wrote: post #71
sigmoid10 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eliminate all screens after sundown. It's literally the nr 1 reason why people struggle. I used to as well (I could easily work in front of a monitor until 4am without getting tired with no coffee or anything). After that, avoid any bright white lights in the evening (usually kitchen/bathroom). It's not always possible, depending on your work and place of living and especially while travelling. I ended up getting ext…

I tried all those things, none worked. You are assuming every brain is wired like yours. It has been proven multiple times that we all have different hormonal levels during the day based on the light patterns. Some people only produce melatonin several hours after it's getting dark. Your assumption of a world where we all behave the same regarding sleep is one of the reason why the US became such a bad 6AM hustle cul…

What worked for me is mirtazapine at 7.5 mg (higher will make it a stimulant anyway). The irony is my doctor is really sceptical. A friend prescribed it to me, who is also a doctor. And he was a bit pissed at my doctor. Quite literally: "your doctor can fucking call me if she questions my methods and I will overflow her with research on this" type of vibe. He did quite some research into it. And I trust him.

Of course, do your own research, consult your own doctor, not a doctor. And as you say: it's not for everyone. But not enough people mention it.

Let me it at least kick it off by looking for a study myself [1, 2, 3] (I just used Google Scholar).

Four things I've noticed:

1. For the studies saying it only works for 6 weeks, not if you only take it three to four times per week (three is better). You can literally feel the habituation go up and down when you play with the dose. I become really sensitive to it within days.

2. First time I took it, it gave me a sedated feel for like 14 hours. So the first few times, you need to desensitize a bit to it actually (don't drive a car the first few times).

3. For me, when paired with 0.3 mg melatonin 2 hours before bed, it stacks.

4. When I'm super stressed, it doesn't work. I need to be and feel normal.

Again: not a doctor, not medical advice. My advice is to discuss this with your doctor and see if they know anything about it. If they don't, well then, I guess my doctor friend knows something that other doctors don't.

[1] https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ahsan-Aziz-Sarkar/publi...

[2] https://academic.oup.com/ageing/article/54/3/afaf050/8093583

[3] https://bjgp.org/content/bjgp/early/2025/01/15/BJGP.2024.017...

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#79

Post by koliber »

mutagen wrote: post #4

This thesis appears to be related or the underlying research: https://d.lib.msu.edu/etd/51312 Indicates 2mg and 5mg were given along with the placebo. While these are common dosages available in the US, these are higher dosages than recommended by at least some sleep experts. The thesis doesn't seem to differentiate between the dosages when evaluating cognitive processes. Now I want to evaluate my sleep stack against…

I read a while back that our brains produce roughly 0.3 mg of melatonin when signaling us to go to sleep. When I occasionally do use melatonin I split a 1mg pill into half or thirds. I find that it works well enough to help me fall asleep. Wondering how the study would look if hwy used 1/2 mg doses.

Re: Melatonin impairs morning cognition in healthy young adults (2023)

#80

Post by mettamage »

koliber wrote: post #79
mutagen wrote: post #4

This thesis appears to be related or the underlying research: https://d.lib.msu.edu/etd/51312 Indicates 2mg and 5mg were given along with the placebo. While these are common dosages available in the US, these are higher dosages than recommended by at least some sleep experts. The thesis doesn't seem to differentiate between the dosages when evaluating cognitive processes. Now I want to evaluate my sleep stack against…

I read a while back that our brains produce roughly 0.3 mg of melatonin when signaling us to go to sleep. When I occasionally do use melatonin I split a 1mg pill into half or thirds. I find that it works well enough to help me fall asleep. Wondering how the study would look if hwy used 1/2 mg doses.

Go to the Netherlands, to the Kruidvat (or Etos or something similar) and just buy a lifetime worth of supply of Melatonin. It's 0.1 mg.

I'm Dutch and live here. But my wife is American. If I ever happen to live in the US (chances are there in my lifetime). I'm going to employ this strategy.

I don't trust the US with this and the Netherlands has proven itself to me in this sense. There are probably many more European countries that do this well. I'm simply not changing a winning team.

But I'd love to hear from other people that believe they found a good melatonin supply in a country. I'm curious.

Post reply on HN