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Utah produced more power from solar than any other source in May, a new first

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Re: Utah produced more power from solar than any other source in May, a new first

#71

Post by bryanlarsen »

Rover222 wrote: post #65
bryanlarsen wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

pumped storage is still significantly cheaper for seasonal storage. The cut off is about 2 weeks now -- if you need to pull from storage more than twice a month batteries are cheaper. If you need to pull from storage less than twice a month pumped storage is cheaper.

I meant it's cheaper when considering building an entirely new pumped storage facility, vs battery storage.

A GWh of pumped storage is $25M, a GWh of batteries is $100M.

More concretely, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fengning_Pumped_Storage_Power_... was built for about $50/KWh. Which is about the same price as batteries.

But that's a daily storage facility. If you undersized it's pumps so it took weeks to refill rather than ~10 hours to make it a seasonal facility, it would have been significantly cheaper.

Re: Utah produced more power from solar than any other source in May, a new first

#72

Post by testing22321 »

epistasis wrote: post #14

Also true for California for quite some time. https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/solar/california-solar-... What's going to happen in the future is that May will be a month of extreme electricity abundance, with a good chunk of the electricity just not being collected at all because the grid doesn't need it, and it will be cheaper to have unused electricity in May than to have too little solar in December.

Not the future, now.

Most Australians now get free power for three hours a day because there is simply so much.

This is the way.

Re: Utah produced more power from solar than any other source in May, a new first

#73

Post by bryanlarsen »

bluGill wrote: post #50
bryanlarsen wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The water requirements for pumped hydro for seasonal storage is a lot less than for generation. - pumped hydro reuses the water in a loop rather than sending it downstream like generation - pumped hydro only needs to produce power a few times a year rather than 24/7/365 like generation.

Only if there is a very large lake at the bottom. If that lake doesn't exist then you have to build it at great cost. You also lose a lot to evaporation if you do this.

The 3.6 GW Fenging pumped storage facility holds 53 thousand acre-feet of water. Lake Mead holds 28 million acre-feet of water to run a 2 GW generator.

Re: Utah produced more power from solar than any other source in May, a new first

#74

Post by jvanderbot »

epistasis wrote: post #14

Also true for California for quite some time. https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/solar/california-solar-... What's going to happen in the future is that May will be a month of extreme electricity abundance, with a good chunk of the electricity just not being collected at all because the grid doesn't need it, and it will be cheaper to have unused electricity in May than to have too little solar in December.

If only we could use that extra power to make methane for later power plant useage

https://terraformindustries.com/

Re: Utah produced more power from solar than any other source in May, a new first

#75

Post by s1artibartfast »

8note wrote: post #30
epistasis wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the challenges for heavy industry aren't as much the cost of energy, as it is the capital cost, and a workforce that has lots of options for higher paying jobs. Heavy industries are usually pretty low on the value chain in economies. They do not provide much return on capital, compared to the high tech options and service options that are available in the US, but not available anywhere else in the world. The…

> I just don't get it! What's the appeal? its the k shaped economy. the big opportunities are great if you can get into them, but otherwise all there is is serving coffee to the wealthy. People are already poorer without a ladder or fulfilling work at the bottom

Why do people think steel mills would pay better or be more attractive than serving coffee. Hard jobs already exist and are in high demand.

Re: Utah produced more power from solar than any other source in May, a new first

#76

Post by dylan604 »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #73
bluGill wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if there is a very large lake at the bottom. If that lake doesn't exist then you have to build it at great cost. You also lose a lot to evaporation if you do this.

The 3.6 GW Fenging pumped storage facility holds 53 thousand acre-feet of water. Lake Mead holds 28 million acre-feet of water to run a 2 GW generator.

Just because you're using less water to power a more efficient generator does not mean the water in the lake is any less susceptible to evaporation and less water from upstream to replenish the lake.

Re: Utah produced more power from solar than any other source in May, a new first

#77

Post by ZeroGravitas »

grahamerwin wrote: post #67

Vaclav Smil would be quick to replace the word power with electricity in the title of this article. It is why Germany can say renewables supply 56% of its electricity while renewables supply only about 21% of its energy. The rest of energy generation won't quickly be replaced with renewables: diesel and kerosene moving freight and people, natural gas in furnaces and boilers, coke reducing iron ore into steel, methane…

You've learned well from Smil how to make problems seem insurmountable by intentionally not approaching them with an engineering mindset.

We know how to do 80% of electricity, 80% of low temp hearing, 80% of transport all while saving money, reducing local pollution and delivering better products.

The big problem isnt technical,it's the culture war that Smil is fighting on the wrong side of and which spreads lies about renewables, EVs and heat pumps.

Re: Utah produced more power from solar than any other source in May, a new first

#78

Post by fragmede »

jvanderbot wrote: post #74
epistasis wrote: post #14

Also true for California for quite some time. https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/solar/california-solar-... What's going to happen in the future is that May will be a month of extreme electricity abundance, with a good chunk of the electricity just not being collected at all because the grid doesn't need it, and it will be cheaper to have unused electricity in May than to have too little solar in December.

If only we could use that extra power to make methane for later power plant useage https://terraformindustries.com/

While the energy used couldn't be recovered, desalinating water for later would be a good use for California, given how the climate is going to go. Not that desalination plants exist for free.

Re: Utah produced more power from solar than any other source in May, a new first

#79

Post by cucumber3732842 »

epistasis wrote: post #53
ericd wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, manufacturing capacity was the basis of US military dominance, which was the underpinning of the post WW2 US-led world order. That's pretty clearly eroded, and we're not sure we could win in a war against China, especially not a full-on war of attrition, and they're not sure about that either, and so they're steadily getting more willing to throw their weight around geopolitically, trying to get a setup that's…

Manufacturing dominance was for WW2, but post WW2 it's really high tech and Silicon Valley that gave us dominance. Silicon Valley was built on defense contracts for control systems, that's what funded all early semiconductor work, what built the technical empire that led to software's dominance in more recent decades. And Ukraine is proving that heavy manufacturing competence is not the key discriminator. Now light m…

>Manufacturing dominance was for WW2, but post WW2 it's really high tech and Silicon Valley that gave us dominance.

There was a good 40+yr there, more in some industries.

Selling the industrial economy piecemeal to china under the guise of environmentalism, worker protection, etc, etc for pennies on the long term dollar was an intentional policy choice and a resounding failure. The winners from that of course don't want to see it framed that way.

Re: Utah produced more power from solar than any other source in May, a new first

#80

Post by Manuel_D »

jvanderbot wrote: post #74
epistasis wrote: post #14

Also true for California for quite some time. https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/solar/california-solar-... What's going to happen in the future is that May will be a month of extreme electricity abundance, with a good chunk of the electricity just not being collected at all because the grid doesn't need it, and it will be cheaper to have unused electricity in May than to have too little solar in December.

If only we could use that extra power to make methane for later power plant useage https://terraformindustries.com/

The idea has been around for decades: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power-to-gas

The obstacle for this process (and in synthetic hydrocarbon fuels more generally) is obtaining the carbon dioxide efficiently. Atmospheric carbon dioxide is in too low of a concentration to be viable. You could source the carbon from coal, but that makes it no longer carbon neutral.

Prometheus fuels is one of several startups pursuing this kind of technology. But it's still blocked on effective air capture of carbon dioxide.

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