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Intel Starts Shipping High-NA EUV Silicon

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Re: Intel Starts Shipping High-NA EUV Silicon

#71

Post by lightedman »

namibj wrote: post #16
spwa4 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. ASML doesn't make the mirrors, but they have exclusive sales rights, exactly as you say. And yes, positioning them, for example, both in the fixed sense (mounting the mirrors in the machine) and in the dynamic sense (rapidly positioning wafers to nanometer-or-better accuracy below the beam, I forgot how quick exactly but it's 10s to 100s of times per second to maintain production rates) is very much not easy ei…

No the beam source we know how to create; it's just that the way to do so requires a factory sized machine that better be feeding 10~30 steppers or a pair for uptime/maintenance windows and then probably more like 50 steppers. Free electron lasers are not hard at "mere EUV", and the accelerators to feed aren't either, it's just that an efficient setup requires recycling the beam which means bending it back which mean…

Uhh, you do not need an accelerator to generate EUV. It's literally just molten tin hit with a laser.

Re: Intel Starts Shipping High-NA EUV Silicon

#72

Post by toast0 »

Zigurd wrote: post #51
arjie wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire multinational effort is in US-Europe-E.Asian countries which are a coordinated allied bloc. The Netherlands allows it because they are entirely aligned. Strong mutual defense agreements cover four out of the five crucial countries here (NATO, Anpo, MDT US/ROK) and the last (Taiwan) has arms sales assurances. It’s not like these are strongly opposed nations or anything. Part of the same fleet in some sense.

2023 called...

Can't undo a 2013 tech sharing agreement because you got a call in 2023...

Re: Intel Starts Shipping High-NA EUV Silicon

#73

Post by johndear223 »

I was just reading about this in a tech magazine, couple of startups also trying other techniques of interest, one of them using helium atoms for the lithography. This uses pretty close to x-ray wavelengths of light. Amazing feats of engineering taking place in this crazy world of ours.

Re: Intel Starts Shipping High-NA EUV Silicon

#74

Post by johndear223 »

rando1234 wrote: post #9

Amazing looking machine! $380 million a pop. Must surely be one of the most sophisticated machines humanity has ever built? A great achievement of European science and technology (ducks).

The lasers are made in San Diego, the lenses made in Germany.

Re: Intel Starts Shipping High-NA EUV Silicon

#75

Post by johndear223 »

spwa4 wrote: post #15
vrganj wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only the optics is an ... interesting way of phrasing it. There was a great Economist article a while ago that talks about this. ASMLs moat isn't just the know-how to build the machines themselves. It's a network of suppliers all across Europe, specialized businesses doing one little part better than anyone else in the world. This is the type of thing that Europe is still leading in, and it'll be incredibly hard to r…

Yeah. ASML doesn't make the mirrors, but they have exclusive sales rights, exactly as you say. And yes, positioning them, for example, both in the fixed sense (mounting the mirrors in the machine) and in the dynamic sense (rapidly positioning wafers to nanometer-or-better accuracy below the beam, I forgot how quick exactly but it's 10s to 100s of times per second to maintain production rates) is very much not easy ei…

Weiss makes the mirrors.

Re: Intel Starts Shipping High-NA EUV Silicon

#76

Post by WarmWash »

adventured wrote: post #10
p_l wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TSMC also AFAIK is forbidden from setting up bleeding-edge fabs outside of Taiwan?

Four more 2nm (or below) fabs in Arizona. That's bleeding-edge or very close to it.

They're building 1.4nm in Taiwan

Re: Intel Starts Shipping High-NA EUV Silicon

#77

Post by toast0 »

ahartmetz wrote: post #7
jbstack wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as already happened with Intel I guess In which sense? Intel is neither a full monopolist (AMD, ARM) nor has progress stalled (we're still getting a regular cycle of new generation CPUs which improve on the previous).

Intel didn't do much to improve their CPUs while AMD was out of the competition with the Bulldozer disaster.

Eh, xeon 2690 was released 2012q1 at 8 cores, 2690v4 was 2016q1 at 14 cores. Same suggested customer price. Clock speed dropped a bit, but IPC was way up (AES-NI had a big throughput increase among other things). IIRC, desktop core counts were pretty stagnant, but a Haswell/Broadwell desktop chip at the same corecount and similar clocks was much faster than a Ivy Bridge/Sandy Bridge.

During 2012-2016 AMD was firmly in the Bulldozer disaster.

In 2017, Zen1 came out, and Intel's tick/tock mostly stopped. Zen1 was better than Bulldozer, but not better than Intel. Zen2 in 2019 was the big moment, and Intel hadn't done much. I recall an interview where the AMD person (might have been Jim Keller) said they had been targetting Zen2 to be competitive with what they thought Intel would have when it came out. Since Intel was in their pipeline bubble, Zen2 was a big win.

Re: Intel Starts Shipping High-NA EUV Silicon

#80

Post by toast0 »

Zigurd wrote: post #79
toast0 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't undo a 2013 tech sharing agreement because you got a call in 2023...

Technically NATO is much harder to undo, and yet there we go.

It's much easier to discontinue military (and other) cooperation than it is to unshare knowledge.
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