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The Fermi Paradox, Percolation, and Inbreeding

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Re: The Fermi Paradox, Percolation, and Inbreeding

#71
post #68
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We kind of do though since we don't see crows accumulating knowledge at any scale comparable to humans and using this knowledge to shape their environment in increasingly complex ways. And crows very obviously do make tools and even teach each other to do it, so it's not like they don't have the inclination for it. The language itself is a a human invention, and a product of how our brains are wired. However, there's…

They're not saying humans don't have profound communication advantages. Obviously the crows don't have nuclear generators and spacecraft. They're saying that the categorical claims about why humans have profound advantages aren't correct.

The fact that we are able to accumulate knowledge and apply it to shape our environment in a way that no other species is able to kind of does suggest that we have a profound communication advantage.

Re: The Fermi Paradox, Percolation, and Inbreeding

#72
post #71
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not saying humans don't have profound communication advantages. Obviously the crows don't have nuclear generators and spacecraft. They're saying that the categorical claims about why humans have profound advantages aren't correct.

The fact that we are able to accumulate knowledge and apply it to shape our environment in a way that no other species is able to kind of does suggest that we have a profound communication advantage.

Everybody here agrees that we do.

Re: The Fermi Paradox, Percolation, and Inbreeding

#73
post #72
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that we are able to accumulate knowledge and apply it to shape our environment in a way that no other species is able to kind of does suggest that we have a profound communication advantage.

Everybody here agrees that we do.

Sorry, misread your comment. Again though, it seems pretty obvious that our ability to accumulate knowledge across generations by recording it through the use of language is a categorical advantage over other animals.

Re: The Fermi Paradox, Percolation, and Inbreeding

#74
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But scale of knowledge acquisition is mediated by, at minimum, lifespan, and what knowledge there is to verbalize and pass on, no? It’s not like we got the language then built our hands based on the knowledge shared by another person with hands. Instead, these co-evolved. Our language is shaped by that, and we shouldn’t give it too much causal power when it’s only a slice of the system. We are also very unclear on wh…

Sure, lifespan is a factor, but it's hard to argue that lifespan has been the main factor for humans. Or that lifetime of many other organisms isn't sufficient. And I already pointed out that we co-evolved with language, that's what it means for it to be a dialectical process. However, for language even get bootstrapped, it needs the prerequisite brain structures to support recursive grammars and abstractions we use.…

Why is it hard to argue lifespan has been a major factor?

You speak of “prerequisite brain structures to support recursive grammars”… would they arise in short lived species, given we know these are complex brain regions that take time to develop, need experience to become fully useful, and are energetically expensive to maintain and run? How do you do that if you live a relatively short time?

On the flip side, precisely in longer lived species like whales and elephants, your statements begin to fail. Elephants (when left in the wild) do accumulate knowledge of huge stretches of a continent and pass on that knowledge horizontally and also down to their progeny.

Whales and dolphins also show initial signs of such linguistic competence.

What these species don’t have is our opposable thumbs, etc. Things that aren’t directly responsible for language and would have evolved without it (as opposable thumbs have in other species), that nevertheless added to what language can do.

That should give you a sense of how language in humans is only as complex as the humans and their society is.

As for writing, I’m really not clear that it’s better than leaving smell traces, when it comes to information density, and speed of sharing. Where it does better is in surviving across generations, and that is indeed an advantage, that our language can go through a short lived medium (sound) AND a longer lived medium which doesn’t tax our memories as much.

Note that writing is a much later invention though, than language. And very tied to our opposable thumbs which can make fine marks and do so repeatably enough that we could associate repeated sounds with repeatable symbols and generate this writing based transmission system. Take that away and we’d remain an oral culture. We’d have do what Sanskrit users did before they found stable ways to write, and create ways to improve memorization. That too has survived generations. Just takes a lot more of each person learning, compared to writing.

Re: The Fermi Paradox, Percolation, and Inbreeding

#75
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, lifespan is a factor, but it's hard to argue that lifespan has been the main factor for humans. Or that lifetime of many other organisms isn't sufficient. And I already pointed out that we co-evolved with language, that's what it means for it to be a dialectical process. However, for language even get bootstrapped, it needs the prerequisite brain structures to support recursive grammars and abstractions we use.…

Why is it hard to argue lifespan has been a major factor? You speak of “prerequisite brain structures to support recursive grammars”… would they arise in short lived species, given we know these are complex brain regions that take time to develop, need experience to become fully useful, and are energetically expensive to maintain and run? How do you do that if you live a relatively short time? On the flip side, preci…

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Re: The Fermi Paradox, Percolation, and Inbreeding

#76
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are wrong. First, I would just naturally assume you are wrong as Fermi would have known that FTL was practically impossible. Fermi evidently made the comment in the 1950s at Los Alamos, as I understand it became widely known due to Carl Sagan's 1963 paper "Direct contact among galactic civilizations by relativistic interstellar spaceflight" https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/003206... What the…

"I have a vague recollection, which may not be accurate, that we talked about flying saucers and the obvious statement that the flying saucers are not real. I also remember that Fermi explicitly raised the question, and I think he directed it at me, ‘Edward, what do you think? How probable is it that within the next ten years we shall have clear evidence of a material object moving faster than light?’ I remember that…

One possibility is that we're one of the first... this means the bubble of reachable solar systems since the universe became able to handle life is limited from each origin point but that as time goes on it changes
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