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Stop saying that AI is just a tool and it only matters how it is used

frank.computer

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Re: Stop saying that AI is just a tool and it only matters how it is used

#71

Post by bawolff »

jraph wrote: post #19
bawolff wrote: post #14

Academics seem to like saying that considering any tool or technology to be value neutral, is naive. And sure, technology choices have plenty of second order effects. Stopping any analysis at just how you are directly using the tool is probably insufficient. At the same time, i still think that is part of how we use a tool. Society's choices about a tool (or even the choice to ban a tool) is still a part of how we us…

> i am claiming it is not inherently good or evil This is what is being refuted. The argument is that there is, in fact, inherent badness in the tool, which doesn't quite depend on how the tool is used (or at least non neutral implications that don't depend on usage).

I understand that that is what the author is trying to refute, i just find it extremely uncompelling.

Re: Stop saying that AI is just a tool and it only matters how it is used

#72

Post by witx »

It's sad to see a forum called _Hacker_ News try to argue so much against the reality that LLMs are having a tremendous negative impact on society, environment and economy, and being on the side of corporations.

Corporations which stole the work from many open source developers that worked for free, torrented books and actively move against open source ideals. Corporations which are pushing for data centers regardless of the cost to environment and populations. Corporations that have been pushing the idea of "ending X,Y and Z jobs" with a smile on their faces. And all for what? The illusion of faster and safer software? When the bubble bursts, and it will, you really think these corporations will be the ones taking the fall and putting up with the costs? The toll will be on us and our savings

I say corporations because I'm done just blamimg CEOs and executives for this, if you work there you're to blame as well.

Re: Stop saying that AI is just a tool and it only matters how it is used

#73

Post by microflash »

To me, “AI is just a tool” argument sounds so fake and hypocritical because that is not how the proponents of AI talk about it. Instead, it is marketed as “the tool” and in some cases, “the only tool”. This completely shifts the incentives, the balance of empowerment and narrative from the users to toolmakers. At that point, AI stops being “a” tool.

Re: Stop saying that AI is just a tool and it only matters how it is used

#74

Post by dzhiurgis »

witx wrote: post #72

It's sad to see a forum called _Hacker_ News try to argue so much against the reality that LLMs are having a tremendous negative impact on society, environment and economy, and being on the side of corporations. Corporations which stole the work from many open source developers that worked for free, torrented books and actively move against open source ideals. Corporations which are pushing for data centers regardles…

> Corporations which stole the work from many open source developers

Wasn't that the entire point of open source tho?

Re: Stop saying that AI is just a tool and it only matters how it is used

#75

Post by witx »

dzhiurgis wrote: post #74
witx wrote: post #72

It's sad to see a forum called _Hacker_ News try to argue so much against the reality that LLMs are having a tremendous negative impact on society, environment and economy, and being on the side of corporations. Corporations which stole the work from many open source developers that worked for free, torrented books and actively move against open source ideals. Corporations which are pushing for data centers regardles…

> Corporations which stole the work from many open source developers Wasn't that the entire point of open source tho?

What, no? The point of open source was to help other developers and communities. Not allow corporations to slurp them on a huge scale and sell you a subscription. Corporations always took advantage of open source but never at this scale.

A couple of years ago I used to work for a pretty soulless company and even them were very very adamant of filling all the forms and software BOMs, and respecting licenses when using open source projects. Now it's just slurp away

Re: Stop saying that AI is just a tool and it only matters how it is used

#76

Post by bawolff »

andsoitis wrote: post #22
bawolff wrote: post #14

Academics seem to like saying that considering any tool or technology to be value neutral, is naive. And sure, technology choices have plenty of second order effects. Stopping any analysis at just how you are directly using the tool is probably insufficient. At the same time, i still think that is part of how we use a tool. Society's choices about a tool (or even the choice to ban a tool) is still a part of how we us…

> We can use nuclear technologies to treat diseases, power our cities, or we can use it to bomb places That’s picking at a particular level in the hierarchy of application that amounts to sleight of hand, even if unintentional. If you said “a nuclear bomb”, the more specific instantiation focuses the purpose and likely impact in the world to a narrower, more purposeful goal. Simply: nuclear technology might be used t…

I guess it depends on how you define tool. Like as far as i know, traditionally Molybdenum-99 (an important isotope in medicine) is made by fision of highly entiched uranium. The same thing a nuclear bomb does, just a little more controlled so there is no big boom.

Is that a different tool or the same tool put to a different use? I would lean to calling that the same tool, since its the same process. I think at some point if we divide tools too finely we just end up encoding the use of the tool in the tool definition and the whole thing becomes moot. Like is a gun used for hunting a different tool then a gun used for murdering? Maybe you could say a machine gun is different, but what if its the same model of gun?

[As an aside, there are very real arguments over if nuclear bombs are a net negative for humanity. For all the downsides, mutually assured destruction significantly suppressed major wars]

Re: Stop saying that AI is just a tool and it only matters how it is used

#77

Post by Quothling »

foxglacier wrote: post #53
Quothling wrote: post #28

I think the environmental aspect is interesting and worth discussing. Around the offices the common joke is that people will "just burn down a piece of the rainforest" when they fire up their AI to solve some complex problem. Which certainly isn't what the world needs right now, and you can't have the "tool" without also the massive water consumption in a world where not everyone has access to clean water. Though as…

I wonder if this fatalism comes from a feeling that the enormous power of AI must somehow come with some sort of proportional cost. There isn't really any clearly known cost so maybe that's why people talk up the water and global warming and social impact fears and all that. In comparison, does anybody say they're burning down a bit of rainforest when they go to the toilet (and flush it)? Or when they cook dinner at…

I think the fatalism comes from having done a lot in our personal lives to live more sustainable, voting for green politics (in Europe you can find those everywhere on the political spectrum). You'll even find a "if it's yellow let it mellow" sign in the bathroom of a lot of my coworkers homes. Yet seing little impact because of how we as a global society continue to burn the planet. I know my fatalism comes from this.

Re: Stop saying that AI is just a tool and it only matters how it is used

#78

Post by apparent »

pj_mukh wrote: post #66
apparent wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Guns don’t have numerous other positive use cases, so AI is simply not a fair comparison. They may not have numerous positive use cases, but the one where they save your life is a pretty good one. People who live where police are nearby don't appreciate how different things are out in the country.

Digression, but gun laws (or lack thereof) apply equally to cities where most people live and where guns wreck most of their havoc and cities are banned from passing any laws to help fix. Different issue entirely. In fact this kind of case-by-case handling is exactly what I’m asking for in AI as opposed to blanket laws.

I appreciate that they can save lives in cities/suburbs as well. I was just pointing out that an item does not need to have "numerous" positive use cases to counterbalance downsides. It is sufficient to have one sizable positive use case, which firearms do have. People who live in proximity to police may not feel this way, but people who live out in the country tend to have a different take (popular saying: when seconds count, the sheriff is minutes away).

Re: Stop saying that AI is just a tool and it only matters how it is used

#79

Post by punkbit »

I enjoyed reading this article and learned a lot from it.

Lately I’ve been writing on paper again, sharpening pencils and slowing down. It helps me stay closer to my own thoughts and to a more human pace.

A pencil is just a tool too, but a very unique one. It disappears if we abuse it, leaving only the traces of our existence.

Re: Stop saying that AI is just a tool and it only matters how it is used

#80

Post by dzhiurgis »

witx wrote: post #75
dzhiurgis wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Corporations which stole the work from many open source developers Wasn't that the entire point of open source tho?

What, no? The point of open source was to help other developers and communities. Not allow corporations to slurp them on a huge scale and sell you a subscription. Corporations always took advantage of open source but never at this scale. A couple of years ago I used to work for a pretty soulless company and even them were very very adamant of filling all the forms and software BOMs, and respecting licenses when using…

Don't buy a subscription baby, get an open weight model and go about your day.

Your complaint is equivalent to Amazon selling hosted postgresql...

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