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Real-time map of Great Britain's rail network

map.signalbox.io

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Re: Real-time map of Great Britain's rail network

#72

[flagged]

This feels like a weird takeway to take from this! Out of curiousity, where are you from? I find it interesting where only people who get so exercised about the UK get their info from...

OP shares dailymail.co.uk links. I think they're probably not located in the UK, but a bot account.

Re: Real-time map of Great Britain's rail network

#73

Would be better if it had some technical explanation rather than just yet another public transport map. This: https://vgcgroup.co.uk/news/signalbox-for-train-locations/ suggests the data mostly comes from railway signalling information, plus a bit of "AI" in some way. I wonder how far apart railway signals usually are, or what the AI is trained on, or anything really vs just looking at a map.

> I wonder how far apart railway signals usually are

It varies substantially across the network, dependent on the mode of operation of the signalling, the desired headway, the maximum operating speed, the service braking distance of the rolling stock at line speed, factors in the layout that might influence safety (e.g. junctions), the number of colour lights used on signal heads (i.e. 2, 3 or 4 colour lights), signal sighting distance, whether signal visibility might be affected by sun glare, etc. And of course this assumes that the area is actually using line-side signals – most of the network does, but there's notable exceptions using in-cab signalling or computer-based train control.

> suggests the data mostly comes from railway signalling information, plus a bit of "AI" in some way

I'm in no way affiliated with the website, but in areas that follow track circuit block principles (much of the heavily-used main GB railway network, excluding many more lightly-used outlying lines), the "signalling information" that article indicates the site derives from is almost certainly Network Rail's Train Describer (TD) feed. This feed reports the headcodes for signalling berths across the layout. The signalling system will normally step headcodes automatically as the train activates successive track circuits or operates axle counters in the track.

The Train Describer can only report headcodes in berths, and berths might be quite long! It certainly doesn't provide second-by-second train progress, so this site's mapping engine is likely doing some proprietary interpolation to make the train position indicators appear to "move" in real time to give the illusion of trains making progress. (Whatever the inputs to their algorithm/model are, their calling it "AI" loses all technical specificity.) This interpolation may be based on line speed, perhaps the observed average time a headcode normally remains in a given berth, allowing them to derive a typical 'average speed' for that berth or section.

If it was me designing this, I'd expect a mixture of the train class, the rolling stock and line speed to give a good estimator of the train's current position in block. You then have to make a product decision to decide what to do if you miscalculated train position – do you make staccato jumps of the train position indicators on the map if you got it wrong, or do you somehow try to smooth your error out over another period to avoid indicators suddenly moving?

In other areas of the country, train position may be reported by GPS on equipped units, or in some areas, the passage of trains is dependent on manual reports by the signaller, so the map may not have much real-time data to infer train position from. I find it highly unlikely that they're deriving much accurate data in real time from smartphone apps, but it could be a (noisy, incomplete) set of inputs to improve their model of how trains typically make progress through particular berths.

Re: Real-time map of Great Britain's rail network

#74
post #33
post #6

Checkout the French equivalent : https://carto.tchoo.net . Looks more complete. Past similar HN submission got no attention, whereas the UK's top page. Interesting ! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45249351

Note that carto.tchoo does not provide real position in real-time: it only has access to departures, stops, delays and suppressions and interpolate position based on this. This means that if your train is running at half-speed or stopped but does not result in an official delay, the position will not match reality.

[deleted]

Re: Real-time map of Great Britain's rail network

#75
post #31

There's one for the Czech network (one of the densest in the world, if not the densest) https://grapp.spravazeleznic.cz

And obligatory one for Slovakia with much better UX.

https://mapa.zsr.sk/index.aspx

And Polish one, still a gen or two behind just like their rail network. It needs to be said they are investing heavily to bring it up to scratch.

https://portalpasazera.pl/MapaPociagow

Re: Real-time map of Great Britain's rail network

#77

Bit puzzled by some of the station data. This train: https://www.map.signalbox.io/?train=202607066710114&location... is a train from Cambridge to Kings Cross - and in the side panel it shows it as calling at the new Cambridge South station. But Cambridge South isn't shown on the map. That's kinda understandable (because it opened a week ago), but Cambridge North (which opened in 2017) also isn't shown on the map. Nei…

It's probably a static feed, and they've probably had to do some lifting to define the layout and map that to the raw data they get from Network Rail, and they've probably not updated it for newly opened stations. There is a station near me that's been open for many years that isn't shown there either.

There are many different alphabet-soup coding systems used across Network Rail, retailing systems, and the wider railway industry to identify locations on the network. Station names will often be different in different databases; look at any station with an apostrophe in and you'll find it inconsistently named in different places.

Re: Real-time map of Great Britain's rail network

#78

Dutch (and Dutch-bound) rail network overview: https://treinposities.nl/ And the equivalent for buses: https://busposities.nl/ Not all of them have GPS trackers, so some positions are guessed. There's functionality for this in the official Dutch Railways app, but it looks like they didn't bother putting that onto their website. There is a common source of open data for most of these details, but I don't find the docs…

Wow! https://treinposities.nl/ even shows historical positions since 2019. Feels like something you'd only see in a cheesy murder mystery.

Re: Real-time map of Great Britain's rail network

#80

Is this actually based on GPS (or similar) on the trains, or is it just interpolating signal times (which are waaaay coarser)?

Not affiliated with the site, but it's almost certainly just the Train Describer feed from Network Rail to observe headcodes stepping through berths, and then doing some proprietary interpolation within berths to guess where the trains are, probably using fairly coarse inputs like train class, rolling stock type and line speed. It's possible it's not even doing that, and they have just built a model that observes typical passage times between berths and they average that out.

TRUST (reporting system that describes train movements as they've happened) does accept updates by means other than the Train Describer, which might include GPS if the unit is equipped, and in many areas is dependent on signallers making manual reports (which may not be made immediately). They might also use TRUST as a data source, especially in non-Track Circuit Block areas. The rate of GPS updates is not going to be anywhere near as frequent as those train position indicators that appear to move here in "real time" across the map, so however they combine data sources, their site is trying to be clever in guessing train location.

It goes without saying: this sort of map is highly likely to be wildly inaccurate and isn't useful for anything safety-critical.

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