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Germany’s Infineon opens major chip plant as EU seeks tech autonomy

rfi.fr

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Re: Germany’s Infineon opens major chip plant as EU seeks tech autonomy

#71
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And 3nm CPUs, GPUs, phone SoCs don't have "real world impact"? One could say they have an even bigger real world impact.

You do not need a 2nm processor to run an engine, perform an ultrasound, drop a missile on someone's head, make 10 million parts in a factory, or fly a plane. The vast majority of the increased processing power we've developed since the mid-2010s gets pissed away rendering 30MB websites or generating AI cheating fruit husband videos. Every phone SoC release for the last 10 years combined has done less in the real, co…

>You do not need a 2nm processor to [...] drop a missile on someone's head, make 10 million parts in a factory, or fly a plane.

What a silly argument. You DO NEED those 2nm CPUs and GPUs to run the CAD and CAE work to design an effective missile and run the battlefield sensor fusion and intelligence data processing to decide when and where to drop that missile. Otherwise if you stay low tech on 20 year old HW, you end up like Russian army today.

Look at EU supercomputers that run these tasks along with the computation needed for high-margin EU industries like pharma such as Novo Nordisk, and it all runs on low-nm US chips made in Taiwan, not EU made microcontrollers and mosfets. Where's EU domestic sovereignty there?

>Every phone SoC release for the last 10 years combined has done less in the real, concrete world we live in than industrial controls hardware from 30 years ago.

An out of touch argument on manipulating a definition of "real work". Work done by industrial controllers isn't "more real" than that done by CPUs and GPUs. By this definition the janitors and handyman in the hospital does more "real work" than the x-ray tech sitting looking at cat videos between looking at x-rays all day. Our economy, yes even in the EU, works on who and what creates more added value to the economy, not whose job is more tough and gritty getting their hands dirty. Work smart, not hard.

>We can vibecode SaaS junk that we will have all forgotten about this time next year [...] you brush up against something that was built by an AB or Siemens PLC installed in 2004 that might be slated for decommissioning in a decade or so

Again, more ignorance. Jobs on vibe coding a SaaS pays way better in Europe and gets you better perks and working conditions, than writing the code of a PLC. Ask me how I know(former embedded programmer here in the semi industry). Or just look up the salaries on the jobs market. The SW industry just pays way better than the industrial controller HW industry. Yeah, the latter is important too, but clearly not important enough when you see the salaries you're offered, meaning they don't actually value it as much.

Your luddite comment just reeks of the typical German/European ignorance and arrogance that made us fall behind the tech race, the EV race, etc leading to the EU losing a lot of GDP and influence on the world stage: "We don't need this battery EV car shit, you can just use diesel engines from 10 years ago", "we don't need this fancy self driving shit, our drivers love driving our cars themselves".

Re: Germany’s Infineon opens major chip plant as EU seeks tech autonomy

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And 3nm CPUs, GPUs, phone SoCs don't have "real world impact"? One could say they have an even bigger real world impact.

If the former all go missing, the consumer is not going to buy a new phone/laptop/etc. this year. If the latter go missing, agriculture and manufacturing companies (e.g. the automotive industry) go broke. The former have more profit, the latter are more important.

>The former have more profit, the latter are more important.

That's a massive contradiction stemming from ignorance, based your skewed and subjective definition of what's more important.

With more money from selling the former high-profit stuff, you can just buy the latter low-margin stuff from a sea of suppliers/countries locked in a race to them bottom to sell to you. Which is how the US economy works and grows.

And the later being less profitable is at constant danger from rising competitors in Asia meaning EU companies have more competition and less margins and why their wages are lower.

If you're still confused on how you judge what's more important, in essence, making more money IS what's more important, not making low margin trinkets that you subjectively see as being more important. Like the arab states don't make jack shit, but they still get to buy the most cutting edge shit they need thanks to their massive oil money.

Because with your logic, making shoes would be more important, because without shoes people wouldn't be able to walk outside their houses, when shoes are actually low margin commodity readily available from thousands of sweatshops, not something any country takes pride in manufacturing domestically anymore, for better and for worse.

Re: Germany’s Infineon opens major chip plant as EU seeks tech autonomy

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wonder how these will fare in Saxony. I presume it's an industry which will attract and depend on highly qualified foreign workers. Saxony has had a decently-sized or large (by German standards) microelectronics sector for decades: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Saxony As you'd probably guess, they're mostly situated around Leipzig and Dresden.

I know about the historic connection, but that doesn't change the political/cultural climate in the area. As a matter of fact, the chairman of Silicon Saxony is concerned as well: https://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/2024-02/afd-sachsen-silicon-s... Not to mention federal politicians doing their best to kill the German economy and motivation to work at all, it's quite hard to imagine why any foreign engineer would chose to…

Dresden and especially Leipzig are quite nice though - lots of culture, music and art. Also close to Berlin. It's not exactly like you would have to travel through the countryside by carriage to get anywhere. I agree that the political and cultural situation outside the cities there is sad though.

Re: Germany’s Infineon opens major chip plant as EU seeks tech autonomy

#74
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Heck, the only countries with Gallium Nitride fabrication capabilities and knowhow are the US, China, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, Germany, and India. So basically all major industrial powers? In which case I don't get the use of the world "only" here, as if the EU, the richest block in the world, deserve praise for doing something countries a lot less wealthier are doing. > and China has already begun embargoing the…

> EU also restricts ASML EUV machines to China It's actually the US that restricts ASML from selling EUV machines to China. The EUV light source itself is American technology developed and produced by Cymer in California. ASML was only permitted to acquire Cymer in 2014 under a strict technology sharing and export control agreement with the US government. It's why, for instance, ASML's next generation research lithog…

>It's why, for instance, ASML's next generation research lithography machine is currently being installed in upstate New York and not somewhere in the Netherlands.

Or more likely because there's already a semi fab in upstate new york and no fabs in the netherlands.

Re: Germany’s Infineon opens major chip plant as EU seeks tech autonomy

#75
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> EU also restricts ASML EUV machines to China It's actually the US that restricts ASML from selling EUV machines to China. The EUV light source itself is American technology developed and produced by Cymer in California. ASML was only permitted to acquire Cymer in 2014 under a strict technology sharing and export control agreement with the US government. It's why, for instance, ASML's next generation research lithog…

>It's why, for instance, ASML's next generation research lithography machine is currently being installed in upstate New York and not somewhere in the Netherlands. Or more likely because there's already a semi fab in upstate new york and no fabs in the netherlands.

Nope. OP's right (and the only other person other than me who has pointed this out on HN).

ASML was one of the founding partners in Albany NanoTech in collaboration with SEMATECH which became the Upstate NY Semiconductor Cluster back in the mid-2000s [0][1].

It was out of SEMATECH that DUV and EUV Photolithography was productionized and licensed to ASML.

Much of the underlying IP used by ASML is licensed and firewalled under JVs with the US DoE and/or the SUNY Consortium (primarily their D/EUV light source work) or firewalled and export controlled by Taiwan (primarily their metrology work)

Btw, that tidbit has become one of the main vetting techniques I use now to see whether someone is blowing hot air or has actual experience in the Semiconductor industry.

[0] - https://www.eetimes.com/asml-to-build-400-million-us-researc...

[1] - https://www.eetimes.com/asml-sematech-team-on-manufacturing-...

Re: Germany’s Infineon opens major chip plant as EU seeks tech autonomy

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's why, for instance, ASML's next generation research lithography machine is currently being installed in upstate New York and not somewhere in the Netherlands. Or more likely because there's already a semi fab in upstate new york and no fabs in the netherlands.

Nope. OP's right (and the only other person other than me who has pointed this out on HN). ASML was one of the founding partners in Albany NanoTech in collaboration with SEMATECH which became the Upstate NY Semiconductor Cluster back in the mid-2000s [0][1]. It was out of SEMATECH that DUV and EUV Photolithography was productionized and licensed to ASML. Much of the underlying IP used by ASML is licensed and firewall…

Ah man, too bad you spent half your comment thumping your chest and dissing others, just to flex on your incomplete semi knowledge, because if you would have just stayed humble when explaining things without throwing accusations, you'd come out looking better.

If you actually knew as much as you claim, you'd have known that ASML bought SVG in 2001, and became ASML US, so in 2004, it was ASML US, former SVG, that was investing in SEMATECH, not the Dutch ASML. It may have the ASML label, but it still remains a sovereign US operation, like you said firewalled form the rest.

I could be wrong about some of this, but if so then it's another good chance for you to flex again on how you know more than some of us.

Re: Germany’s Infineon opens major chip plant as EU seeks tech autonomy

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. OP's right (and the only other person other than me who has pointed this out on HN). ASML was one of the founding partners in Albany NanoTech in collaboration with SEMATECH which became the Upstate NY Semiconductor Cluster back in the mid-2000s [0][1]. It was out of SEMATECH that DUV and EUV Photolithography was productionized and licensed to ASML. Much of the underlying IP used by ASML is licensed and firewall…

Ah man, too bad you spent half your comment thumping your chest and dissing others, just to flex on your incomplete semi knowledge, because if you would have just stayed humble when explaining things without throwing accusations, you'd come out looking better. If you actually knew as much as you claim, you'd have known that ASML bought SVG in 2001, and became ASML US, so in 2004, it was ASML US, former SVG, that was…

The SVG acquisition was still part of the initial CRADA. Nor does it undermine my nor OP's point.

And it's not about flexing. I've gotten tired of reflexive Euro- and American nationalism on HN by people who don't work in the industry.

People dissing fairly hard European initiatives like Infineon work building a GaN wafer fab instead of one dedicated to logic ICs or going the complete opposite and postulating the EU can be completely cut off from the US and replicate every technology from scratch are both constantly brought up on HN and are ridiculous positions.

Re: Germany’s Infineon opens major chip plant as EU seeks tech autonomy

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Also suitable for keeping an economy functioning The (western) economy runs on sub 7nm phone, laptop and datacenter chips on which the white collar workforce produces value. Those are the ones that are also the most profitable since they have the highest margins. Europe doesn't have that.

Phones and laptops from a few years ago are not suddenly unusable. Yes, the cutting edge is very nice, but any laptop past 2016 is useable for the average person. Even gpu inference on older process nodes is perfectly doable. The HPC space absolutely prefers newer chips but hasn't ripped out their 2018 chips in their clusters because they still deliver value. And sure, the latest best things sells for higher margins…

>Yes, the cutting edge is very nice, but any laptop past 2016 is useable for the average person.

Except, it's the cutting edge that makes more money than making HW from 2016. And EU would definitely like to make more money rather than less.

Plus, Germany and EU doesn't even make 2016 levels of PC HW to have sovereignty there. They still depend on importing US chips made in Taiwan even if they want 2016 HW.

>people may start choosing older still perfectly capable models that cost less.

Doesn't really matter what people are choosing, the high margin parts are going towards datacenter customers now, not to consumers. Consumers have little choice now.

And with new consumer stuff seeing price increases, even old used HW is also seeing price increases due to supply and demand. And none of this is a win for Germany and the EU since they don't capture much value from this.

Re: Germany’s Infineon opens major chip plant as EU seeks tech autonomy

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but parts of Saxony are sadly no-go areas for anyone remotely non-white Which is of course exaggerated as usually and if you are referring to the AFD, my take is that the focus on the eastern part is just cope by the western part, they are rising the same in the western part, the eastern is just ahead of the curve. This is very much a problem of the complete country. If the administration(s) manage to bring back th…

> Which is of course exaggerated as usually and if you are referring to the AFD, my take is that the focus on the eastern part is just cope by the western part, they are rising the same in the western part, the eastern is just ahead of the curve. Sure buddy. https://www.raa-sachsen.de/support/statistik/statistiken/rec... There is a reason, every young person with half a brain moves to Leipzig/Dresden, or leaves Saxon…

> Sure buddy. https://www.raa-sachsen.de/support/statistik/statistiken/rec...

> Im Jahr 2024 verzeichneten Opferberatungsstellen in Sachsen 328 rechtsmotivierte Angriffe, von denen mindestens 446 Personen direkt betroffen waren.

According to https://www.statistik.sachsen.de/html/lebenserwartung-gestor... there were 56.968 dead people in Saxony. Assuming all of those attacks killed all people which they didn't, you are 120 times more likely to just die, than to be in one of those attacks. According to https://www.lpr.sachsen.de/download/Lagebild_HGW_2024.pdf, there were 10.202 cases of domestic violence in the same year.

I'm not saying it does not exist, I am saying that while there are dangerous people and situations in a society and this is one of them, there is no reason, to act like this is dominating entire landscapes. What I find way more concerning is the 32.3% increase in the same year.

Btw, there were 3612 cases in Bavaria[0] in 2024. This means there were 8 cases per 100k inhabitants in Saxony and 27 in Bavaria[1] Do you also want to claim, that Bavaria is a dangerous shithole? It doesn't seem to hurt the industry there.

> Cope...

That was referring to the common trope, that the AFD is solely an issue for the dumb Eastern part and it would never happen in the oh-so-educated Western part.

> Dude, you can't blame lack of decency and empathy on the economy forever... And it won't get better by ignoring shit feeling entitled to outside help fixing your mess.

I don't think political ignorance and frustration directly correlates with day-to-day empathy. But I do think 60 years of propaganda do something to a population and this issue is massively ignored and underestimated. Thinking this doesn't have any effect is saying they sucked at their job, which I think they really didn't, they were professionals in their own kind.

> Public perception is already brilliant: https://www.fr.de/politik/vorsicht-ostdeutschland-11150062.h...

That is exactly what I mean with exaggeration and cope. This is an example of the Western part claiming the high-ground and planting the idea, that this can never happen in the West and is just these stupid Easterns, ignoring that there is very much a radicalism tourism, with people also coming from the West. I do live in Dresden, no there are no "no-go areas". That's just fear mongering and lying.

[0] https://www.gruene-fraktion-bayern.de/themen/demokratie-gege... [1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demografie_Deutschlands#mwKak

Re: Germany’s Infineon opens major chip plant as EU seeks tech autonomy

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which is of course exaggerated as usually and if you are referring to the AFD, my take is that the focus on the eastern part is just cope by the western part, they are rising the same in the western part, the eastern is just ahead of the curve. Sure buddy. https://www.raa-sachsen.de/support/statistik/statistiken/rec... There is a reason, every young person with half a brain moves to Leipzig/Dresden, or leaves Saxon…

> Sure buddy. https://www.raa-sachsen.de/support/statistik/statistiken/rec... > Im Jahr 2024 verzeichneten Opferberatungsstellen in Sachsen 328 rechtsmotivierte Angriffe, von denen mindestens 446 Personen direkt betroffen waren. According to https://www.statistik.sachsen.de/html/lebenserwartung-gestor... there were 56.968 dead people in Saxony. Assuming all of those attacks killed all people which they didn't, you ar…

My man, I didn't even bring up the AfD. So think about that for a moment and do some introspection. You are projecting a lot.

And downplaying those numbers with all cause mortality... Maybe think about that too, hm?!

And your source states Bavaria had 144 violent right wing crimes, which is the number to match. Don't even sweat, for other reasons I would call it a shit hole too. But please, redo the math and be sure to not contrast the total population but the relevant potential victim populations. You know, since xenophobic violence isn't threatening everyone the same...

I live in east Germany and speak from experience. So maybe you are the arrogant one trying to ostplain the world to those seeing just fine.

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