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Greece Is Richer. So Why Do So Many Greeks Still Feel Poor?

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Re: Greece Is Richer. So Why Do So Many Greeks Still Feel Poor?

#71

Post by abirch »

zhoBEENG wrote: post #14
abirch wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As Ray Dalio has mentioned, you should measure results on how it impacts the bottom 51% of the people (the majority) it's a lot more illustrative than looking at the average.

Should we perhaps look at the top 51% instead? Why pick one perspective over the other? I’m not familiar with Dalio outside some weird pseudo-academic paper he wrote where he attempts to provide a new grand theory of economics based on “transactions”, but I would be interested to hear this perspective supported. Edit: samiv above answered my question

Ray Dalio created one of the most successful hedge funds ever and as he calls himself "a professional capitalist." The guy even helped with launching the Chickent McNugget (advising McDonald's with Poultry futures)

If you look at the top 51% things are going extremely well, but as this article shows it can hide a lot. I loved his explanation of how the economic machine works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHe0bXAIuk0 his book Principles is pretty good too.

Re: Greece Is Richer. So Why Do So Many Greeks Still Feel Poor?

#72

Post by password54321 »

microgpt wrote: post #65
password54321 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much of that trillion is liquid? If people stopped buying a Tesla, would that somehow help the poor? Making electric vehicles more mainstream seems like a net-positive to the world.

[flagged]

[flagged]

Re: Greece Is Richer. So Why Do So Many Greeks Still Feel Poor?

#73

Post by Garlef »

radu_floricica wrote: post #42
abirch wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As Ray Dalio has mentioned, you should measure results on how it impacts the bottom 51% of the people (the majority) it's a lot more illustrative than looking at the average.

Considering how skewed tax participation is, this would be a very one sided view. Just tax the top 49% more, no matter what's their current level of taxation, and redistribute to the lower 51%. It'll always make this criteria look like a success. Problem is, this creates systemic effects. If you look longer term, a society that does this will end up a lot poorer than one that doesn't. Even for the bottom 51% you were…

> If you look longer term, a society that does this will end up a lot poorer than one that doesn't.

Got data to back that up?

(On the serious level, I'm really curious; But on the polemic level I'll call BS - I highly doubt there ever was such a period in any capitalist country ever)

Re: Greece Is Richer. So Why Do So Many Greeks Still Feel Poor?

#74

Post by jedimastert »

password54321 wrote: post #59
jedimastert wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet we are also living in some of the strongest wealth inequality in the last 100 years at least. https://ourworldindata.org/economic-inequality

This seems to apply much more to certain nations like the US while it drops worldwide in recent decades. https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/inequality?tab=line&cou...

I would call that holding steady worldwide in the last decade, which honestly is still unacceptable with how much more wealthy the world has gotten

Re: Greece Is Richer. So Why Do So Many Greeks Still Feel Poor?

#75

Post by jedimastert »

aleph_minus_one wrote: post #50
jedimastert wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Additionally, it often happens that the interests of people in one country are antagonistic to the interests of people in another country. I find this honestly kind of difficult to believe, except when it comes to distractions by the people who want to stay in power

Just to give one class of examples: Should a country implement some very nationalist policies that serve the interests of the not so well-off people in its own country, but will be against the interests of other countries and their people? Think of the uprise of right-wing, nationalist parties in many European countries that often present themselves as "the new worker parties", i.e. they intend to implement policies…

These kinds of policies are exactly what I meant by "distractions", those policies tend to help the wealthy far more than workers, and then those same policies are turned towards the workers when there aren't any more immigrants to hurt

Re: Greece Is Richer. So Why Do So Many Greeks Still Feel Poor?

#76

Post by ajmurmann »

kubb wrote: post #40
ajmurmann wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

You're conflating compounding market value with economic growth. One counterexample is when inflation raises prices, but not economic output. Asset prices grow but there's no growth.

What do you think happens with the money that goes into stock? It doesn't simply vanish. It ultimately gets invested in salaries, construction of data centers and factories.

Re: Greece Is Richer. So Why Do So Many Greeks Still Feel Poor?

#77

Post by ajmurmann »

paulryanrogers wrote: post #39
ajmurmann wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Then why is so much money going into real estate and greater-fool crypto?

BTC market cap is $1.2T. S&P 500 market cap is about $66T. Why would we not want for money to flow into real estate? It's an area with massive demand and money flowing in to create supply is exactly what we need and is productive. What is not productive is the NIMBY scum that's preventing supply from being met.

Re: Greece Is Richer. So Why Do So Many Greeks Still Feel Poor?

#78

Post by kubb »

ajmurmann wrote: post #76
kubb wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're conflating compounding market value with economic growth. One counterexample is when inflation raises prices, but not economic output. Asset prices grow but there's no growth.

What do you think happens with the money that goes into stock? It doesn't simply vanish. It ultimately gets invested in salaries, construction of data centers and factories.

That's most certainly not what happens! The money that goes into buying a stock is being transferred to the people who sold you the stock (which, outside of the IPO are almost always market players).

A company with a high stock price can "save money" by paying employees in stock, borrowing money cheaper, but it's NOT a primary way of funding the company.

Re: Greece Is Richer. So Why Do So Many Greeks Still Feel Poor?

#79

Post by onraglanroad »

kubb wrote: post #41
onraglanroad wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The capitalist response to that would be that the investment in companies is better because it makes everyone richer in the long term by increasing overall wealth. I'm not sure I buy it but it's an effect to consider.

That does sometimes happen - investment does cause development. The mistake is to assume that's always what happens, and that everybody can benefit from the development.

Oh I agree with you. I suspect it happens less than is the conventional wisdom, but I might be wrong.

Re: Greece Is Richer. So Why Do So Many Greeks Still Feel Poor?

#80

Post by dlcarrier »

BariumBlue wrote: post #10

Seems like housing again: > Rents have surged in recent years, driven by tourism, foreign investment and a shortage of affordable housing. The cost of housing now consumes one of the largest shares of disposable income in the European Union My impression is that where housing is expensive, there will be complaints of unaffordability (obviously), but also vice versa, that where there is unaffordability, housing always…

    I wouldn't be surprised if Greece has strong NIMBY factors.
It's one of the oldest civilizations in existence. Combine the trend of NIMBYism building up over time, with most every city being an archeological site, and one of the least stable economies in Europe, and you aren't getting much housing investment.
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